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  1. #541
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    Elementary kids going down is super rough. As for university kids, fully grown adults that should know what the boundaries of life and death - I'm going to say they are somewhat responsible for their own actions if they intend to provoke conflict, even just by mean words.

    Same with fully grown european nations and Putin, don't poke the bear idiots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman.45 View Post
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    Are you being serious? So your theory is that strong punishments will stop mass murderers from procuring high capacity mags and rifles? I mean, other than the already strong punishment for their upcoming murders, right. Deterrence from committing mass murder by having a "strong" punishment for drilling out a pop rivet in a magazine. For some reason I think that joe crazy isn't going to be all that put out about a mandatory 10 year jail sentence under the firearms act when it's compared to the umpteen life sentences for shooting people, and that's even if joe crazy plans to not flick off his own light switch.

    As already stated, how do you punish retailers for potential/possible upcoming crimes? ...
    I think you're getting caught up in the criminal punishments for Canada and for the shooter (should be shot dead on scene IMO). The punishment we have here for modification of magazines seems to be effective. Which is why people don't usually do it.

    The US gov, as we know, is insistent on not regulating the firearms industry by background checks etc. So another avenue would be to regulate the retailers and private sales by putting the onus on the seller to do their own background check etc instead.

    For example, Let's just say that while the 18 year old was purchasing the guns in this gun shop in Texas, he mentioned that he was going to shoot up a school, and they sold the guns to him anyway, the shop could be held liable and open to law suit from the victims if not complicit in the crime itself. So if the US Gov't (unfairly) were to expand that liability to say that if a shop sells a gun to someone who goes and commits crimes within (X) days, years etc. could be held liable in a civil suit.

    Retail/Public sellers would have a serious incentive to exercise some diligence in who they sold guns to just to cover their own ass. Now if the US Gov't were to concurrently offer a background check for free with a 48 hour (7 day, 6 month etc.) turn around time with no private information being disclosed from the buying party to the seller. We are halfway there to a round about gun control; imposed by the retailers/sellers themselves out of the need to shield themselves from liability. The sellers are still free to sell the gun despite negative results of the background check, as they are free to not do the check at all. But if crimes are committed with the weapon by that person in (X) time frame, they can get ready to be sued by the victims.

    It's just an idea; by no means ideal. It incorporates two things Americans love, freedom and suing people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman.45 View Post
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    We're talking about a second or two of advantage with high cap magazines - technically you're not wrong, but the overall effect is VERY minimal in terms of advantage of mass shooters having access to high cap magazines, particularly because they aren't having fired returned on them until L/E eventually shows up - and even then 1/2 of the cases L/E wait for the tactical units to show up, as per the many criticisms on that particular subject. Your example holds water if you have shooters a and b in a competition based on time where fractions of seconds count, but in they typical mass shooter scenario, time isn't very critical to the shooter until L/E or some other armed party shows up to engage them.

    I'd be happy to demonstrate for you the difference in person, and demonstrate how little disadvantage a small capacity magazine is.

    So far as the root of the problem and how to even attempt to try and solve it, Kloubek said one thing that I very much agree with. Society indeed has something wrong with it IMO, and that's what we should be focusing on trying to fix. When I was in high school, my school had a rifle team FFS, I brought rifles to school in my trunk every single day in the 11th and 12th grade, and I was far from the only one. Teachers, parents, other kids, they all knew that we trained frequently after school (I was C carded on the junior trap team as well). Imagine that nowadays? What's changed? I'm not sure tbh, but something sure has, as things are MUCH different than just 30 years ago.
    So, if the time to complete a mag change isn't critical that would give the shooter more time to complete, yes? If the shooter still has to reload more often, that is still time not spent shooting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
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    I think you're getting caught up in the criminal punishments for Canada and for the shooter (should be shot dead on scene IMO). The punishment we have here for modification of magazines seems to be effective. Which is why people don't usually do it.

    The US gov, as we know, is insistent on not regulating the firearms industry by background checks etc. So another avenue would be to regulate the retailers and private sales by putting the onus on the seller to do their own background check etc instead.

    For example, Let's just say that while the 18 year old was purchasing the guns in this gun shop in Texas, he mentioned that he was going to shoot up a school, and they sold the guns to him anyway, the shop could be held liable and open to law suit from the victims if not complicit in the crime itself. So if the US Gov't (unfairly) were to expand that liability to say that if a shop sells a gun to someone who goes and commits crimes within (X) days, years etc. could be held liable in a civil suit.

    Retail/Public sellers would have a serious incentive to exercise some diligence in who they sold guns to just to cover their own ass. Now if the US Gov't were to concurrently offer a background check for free with a 48 hour (7 day, 6 month etc.) turn around time with no private information being disclosed from the buying party to the seller. We are halfway there to a round about gun control; imposed by the retailers/sellers themselves out of the need to shield themselves from liability. The sellers are still free to sell the gun despite negative results of the background check, as they are free to not do the check at all. But if crimes are committed with the weapon by that person in (X) time frame, they can get ready to be sued by the victims.

    It's just an idea; by no means ideal. It incorporates two things Americans love, freedom and suing people.
    This is where the first part of your argument, as per my last post, falls flat. How do you know "people usually don't do it"? Do you realize that SO many shootings in Canada where a mag fed semi auto rifle was used, that the crazy who did it had re-modified his magazines back to full capacity? Nova Scotia. Mayorthorpe. Etc. The few shootings we've had with mag fed rifles in Canada, the majority of cases I can find showed the shooter had used high capacity magazines. Again, crazy person is NOT going to care about some magazine law when setting out to commit a bunch of murders. There is no deterrence there, none.

    You're also ignorant on how firearms purchases work in the USA. You can't stroll into a gun shop as an 18 year old, declare you're about to go shoot up your school, and have the counter person happily equip you with an assault rifle. The ATF is up gun store's asses in a way you just won't understand unless you're in that industry. EVERY purchase at such stores goes through background checks. Even the left's favorite topic, the "gun show loophole", is no loophole at all, if you attend any gun show in the US these days there is a huge ATF presence and back ground check computers there on site. The few private sellers in a few states that show up at gun shows are the only loophole, as a few states don't require records to be kept by private sellers at gun shows (or anywhere else), and these make up a very, very small percentage of sales.

    I don't understand how a store is supposed to show "more" diligence than what they already do, what with the paperwork, background checks on every sale, every employee, etc that already exists. Should someone as you suggested start mouthing off about shooting people, I highly doubt anyone these days would let that slide without pickup up a phone. Beyond that, how is anyone supposed to predict future behavior?
    Last edited by Gman.45; 05-27-2022 at 10:58 AM.

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    The only thing worse than the gun debate is the amount of disinformation that gets treated as undisputed fact.

    It says worlds about your argument when you have to literally make things up to justify your position.
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    So, if the time to complete a mag change isn't critical that would give the shooter more time to complete, yes? If the shooter still has to reload more often, that is still time not spent shooting.
    Again, we're talking about an extra few seconds, at most. That matters little when seconds don't count because a crazy has a bunch of unarmed trapped people as targets. In a scenario where it would be armed professional vs armed professional, or soldier vs soldier, then yes, it would make a quantifiable difference. But not in an active shooting situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gman.45 View Post
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    This is where the first part of your argument, as per my last post, falls flat. How do you know "people usually don't do it"? Do you realize that SO many shootings in Canada where a mag fed semi auto rifle was used, that the crazy who did it had re-modified his magazines back to full capacity? Nova Scotia. Mayorthorpe. Etc. The few shootings we've had with mag fed rifles in Canada, the majority of cases I can find showed the shooter had used high capacity magazines. Again, crazy person is NOT going to care about some magazine law when setting out to commit a bunch of murders. There is no deterrence there, none.

    You're also ignorant on how firearms purchases work in the USA. You can't stroll into a gun shop as an 18 year old, declare you're about to go shoot up your school, and have the counter person happily equip you with an assault rifle. The ATF is up gun store's asses in a way you just won't understand unless you're in that industry. EVERY purchase at such stores goes through background checks. Even the left's favorite topic, the "gun show loophole", is no loophole at all, if you attend any gun show in the US these days there is a huge ATF presence and back ground check computers there on site. The few private sellers in a few states that show up at gun shows are the only loophole, as a few states don't require records to be kept by private sellers at gun shows (or anywhere else), and these make up a very, very small percentage of sales.

    I don't understand how a store is supposed to show "more" diligence than what they already do, what with the paperwork, background checks on every sale, every employee, etc that already exists. Should someone as you suggested start mouthing off about shooting people, I highly doubt anyone these days would let that slide without pickup up a phone. Beyond that, how is anyone supposed to predict future behavior?
    Damn, dude. Damn. You know what you're right. Our gun laws here are not working, and we clearly have a school shooting problem in Canada. Fuck it, ban all guns. Where do I turn mine in? /sarcasm

    It was an example to show how they could be held liable legally. Not in any actual factual account.

    BACKGROUND CHECK WITH A TIMEFRAME a time frame for whatever law enforcement body to review or have a conversation with the purchaser, talk to a family member and see what they think, request mental assessment. Why do I have to spell this all out?

    You're clearly right, nothing should be tried to stop this issue because there is no issue. /sarcasm

    Don't reply @ me, I have neither the time, nor the patience.
    Last edited by DonJuan; 05-27-2022 at 01:45 PM. Reason: had to point out the sarcasm

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    Quote Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
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    You're clearly right, nothing should be tried to stop this issue because there is no issue.
    Glad someone is finally understanding. Extreme outliers are not worth expending effort on. More lives could be saved with that effort elsewhere. You always start with low hanging fruit.

    Oh, and the police doing their jobs would help, EXCEPT the police have no obligation to sacrifice themselves for you.

    https://nationalpost.com/news/send-t...-police-waited

    So if the government can not be trusted to use their monopoly on force to protect you, how do you protect yourself? By arming yourself.

    And getting rid of bad policy. Locking kids in classrooms during a live shooting is the dumbest fucking idea on the face of the planet.
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    If I had known you guys would end up being such bitches, I would’ve opened the parenting forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zechs View Post
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    Glad someone is finally understanding. Extreme outliers are not worth expending effort on. More lives could be saved with that effort elsewhere. You always start with low hanging fruit.

    Oh, and the police doing their jobs would help, EXCEPT the police have no obligation to sacrifice themselves for you.

    https://nationalpost.com/news/send-t...-police-waited

    So if the government can not be trusted to use their monopoly on force to protect you, how do you protect yourself? By arming yourself.

    And getting rid of bad policy. Locking kids in classrooms during a live shooting is the dumbest fucking idea on the face of the planet.
    So, defund the police?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    So, defund the police?
    zechs always struck me as Rachel Maddow police defunder type.

  11. #551
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    Horseshoe theory strikes again

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    So, defund the police?
    God damnit

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    Should have sent in ED-209.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonJuan View Post
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    Damn, dude. Damn. You know what you're right. Our gun laws here are not working, and we clearly have a school shooting problem in Canada. Fuck it, ban all guns. Where do I turn mine in? /sarcasm

    It was an example to show how they could be held liable legally. Not in any actual factual account.

    BACKGROUND CHECK WITH A TIMEFRAME a time frame for whatever law enforcement body to review or have a conversation with the purchaser, talk to a family member and see what they think, request mental assessment. Why do I have to spell this all out?

    You're clearly right, nothing should be tried to stop this issue because there is no issue. /sarcasm

    Don't reply @ me, I have neither the time, nor the patience.
    Right, I know your idea was an "example", not current policy, what I said is that your idea is ridiculous based on current laws and policy already in effect. I thought it was ridiculous enough to warrant comment, and I wouldn't have replied, but then you made this post, which goes even beyond the ridiculousness of the previous ones. You don't get to call it, nobody is forcing you to read anything.

    So your "new example" is for "BACKGROUND CHECKS + a "timeframe", whatever that is supposed to mean...a time frame for L/E to interview gun purchasers, their family members, and also incorporate mental assessments? Are you going to create the 10 million new L/E jobs that'll be required to take on this new task? And no, you don't need to spell anything out, as you're clearly out to lunch, if you think that interviewing the millions of firearms purchasers every month, then their family members, in addition to having some of them put through mental health checks, is even possible. That's without even getting into any of the legal and constitutional issues with such a "plan". I realize it gives you the feels to think that some "authorized" government employee should have the power to interrogate every firearms purchaser, their family, as well as make mental health decisions (based on what exactly), in order to make things "safer", but to think something such as this would fly in the USA - if it was even logistically possible, which it isn't - is just funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    So, defund the police?
    I've actually always been a fan of defunding the police, so their limited resources would be forced to deal with real crime. I don't agree with those resources moved elsewhere. Defund police, lower taxes. The police will literally never be of any help to me; they don't investigate theft under $5k, they can't respond quick enough to stop an assault, and they don't stop gangs from committing the worst crimes. So defund them.

    Edmonton is going this way since UCP changed the photo radar rules. It's beautiful to see. I am sure council will completely fuck it up, but you win some you live in a socialist country some.
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    If I had known you guys would end up being such bitches, I would’ve opened the parenting forum.

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    It's fucking crazy the police were on-site the whole time and didn't go in for 45 minutes. I hope those cops off themselves
    Last edited by dirtsniffer; 05-27-2022 at 11:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtsniffer View Post
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    It's fucking crazy the police were on-site the whole time and didn't go in for 45 minutes. I hope those cops off themselves
    ah come on they where afraid for their safety

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    Scared of an 18 year old with an ar-15. How soon until the cops start being the biggest advocates for banning “assault rifles” lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabad66 View Post
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    Scared of an 18 year old with an ar-15. How soon until the cops start being the biggest advocates for banning “assault rifles” lol
    Umm, Have you met Canada?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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