Giving land back to natives.

[ZenOps]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/indigenous/jo...land-1.4552843

An Alberta man has posted an open invitation for a First Nations family to share his five-acre property.
"We want to share our tiny piece of stolen land with a First Nations family, and find freedom and self-sufficiency together," said Joel Holmberg.
His Facebook pitch ends with, "If you are Indigenous, have kids, are clean and sober, and want to be free on the land, we have a home for you here. No rent, no bills, just live free…"

[firebane]

Well this is going to be the "bad side" of me... but good luck meeting those requirements.

[revelations]

Good attempt, but many FN folks unfortunately have an entitled and a very racist (we're better) attitude towards the whites.

Not saying there aren't a few good ones (I know a few personally) but I can see someone taking advantage of this. They would expect to be fed, clothed and looked after. Then their kids stealing your shit? No way, their kids are little angels say the parents.

(however - in this case, the land owner is well versed with FN folks personally, in a good way).

[JRSC00LUDE]

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Not saying there aren't a few good ones (I know a few personally) but I can see someone taking advantage of this. They would expect to be fed, clothed and looked after. Then their kids stealing your shit? No way, their kids are little angels say the parents.
.

Not sure of your actual intent but, this doesn't exactly read in a "not racist" way itself.

[ExtraSlow]

I wish this guy all the success in the world, he has some experience with these cultures and his heart is in the right place. I don't think it would be something that most of us could emulate successfully.

[revelations]

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Not sure of your actual intent but, this doesn't exactly read in a "not racist" way itself.

Where am I stating that white man is superior to FN? (the very definition of racism)

[Antonito]

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Where am I stating that white man is superior to FN? (the very definition of racism)

I’m phone-posting so I’m not going to copy and paste a bunch of stuff but the definition of racism does include antagonism and stereotyping, which your post has, especially the “a few good ones” phrase which is really often used by racists because it’s a cutesy way of trying to side step being called a racist although theyre accusing the majority of a race of having a bunch of negative traits

BUT

I can easily see if you’re coming at this from a non-racist angle because there is a portion of the native population that fits these stereotypes and this situation would be like catnip to scummy scam-artist types, so the likelihood would be very high.

Good luck to this guy, if he does a good job of vetting the people I think it will be great for all involved, sounds like he really enjoys being around native culture, but I agree that he’s going to have a lot of applicants trying to take advantage of him

[JRSC00LUDE]

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I’m phone-posting so I’m not going to copy and paste a bunch of stuff but the definition of racism does include antagonism and stereotyping, which your post has, especially the “a few good ones” phrase which is really often used by racists because it’s a cutesy way of trying to side step being called a racist although theyre accusing the majority of a race of having a bunch of negative traits

BUT

I can easily see if you’re coming at this from a non-racist angle because there is a portion of the native population that fits these stereotypes and this situation would be like catnip to scummy scam-artist types, so the likelihood would be very high.

Good luck to this guy, if he does a good job of vetting the people I think it will be great for all involved, sounds like he really enjoys being around native culture, but I agree that he’s going to have a lot of applicants trying to take advantage of him

Pretty much this on all points Revelations. And I did say I was not deciding you're actually intending to sound that way however the typical "I'm not a racist BUT...." is how it reads.

[revelations]

Sigh,

racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior

No where did I state or imply that white man is in any way superior. Stating that many FN folk have problems with the care and control of their kids is not racist, prejudicial or antagonistic.
It would be equivalent to stating that "low income areas occupied by white folks, tend to have issues with the care and control of their kids". Both of these are statements are statistically valid observations.

Racism is not stereotyping (eg. FN folks have a drinking problem); racism can lead to discrimination however .

[Seth1968]

based on the belief that one's own race is superior

Except, white people are indeed superior in just about every way. That's why natives use all of our stuff and would never go back to their inferior characteristics.

The natives that disagree with that, therefore think white people are inferior, which then makes them racist themselves (by the definition quoted).

[revelations]

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The natives that disagree with that, therefore think white people are inferior, which then makes them racist themselves (by the definition quoted).

And this is exactly what I have encountered in my many and various dealings, both in and out of uniform, with FN folk - many of them are incredibly racist (believe they are superior).

[ExtraSlow]

I'm inclined to cut Revelations here a little slack because from what I know, he's got a lot of experience working with first nations individuals and communities.

You can see how tricky these discussions can get however, as even a few simple sentences can have people making assumptions about your motives and calling you a racist.

[HiTempguy1]

It'll be great when initially things work well, then go to shit, then the people squat and declare it "their" land

[bjstare]

Can't wait to see how this turns out.

[Sugarphreak]

....

[Seth1968]

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If this is truly what he believes, why doesn't he donate it to FN and go live on the street?

Isn't this kind of like somebody stealing your car and then offering you a ride? Lol

These kinds of people are such hypocrites, they pretend to believe in the stolen land crap, but if they really did they'd go back to whatever country they immigrated from.

[Kloubek]

Oh, here we go with another thread about the Natives.

So sure, I'll get involved.

To start, I don't think stereotyping is necessarily a form of racism. We know what we see. And what we see is a lot of first nations people not exactly doing much with their lives, complaining, and getting into substance abuse. It's just a fact that so many do. It's like back in the 40's when white people generally didn't like black people and treated them accordingly. If a black person felt white people were mean to blacks, it'd be an understandable stereotype - though not ALL white people were assholes. With this said, there were some things in these comments which are indeed, as a collective, bordering on racism, imo.

Anyway, the way we've been handling natives has to stop. We've made our amends as best we can, and our government has publicly apologized and paid for their wrongdoings. It doesn't take it away and doesn't make what happened in the past acceptable, but there comes a point Natives have to stop playing the victim, keep the past in the past and move forward. Again... let me be clear: What the Europeans/Canadians did to the natives was UNACCEPTABLE. I'd say I'm ashamed, but how ashamed can I be when my bloodline wasn't even responsible? (And chances are, yours wasn't either). I in no way want to trivialize what they've been through or what they are currently going through. With that said, most of us have dealt with some level of adversity in our lives and it isn't acceptable to blame who we are on our past, so why should they? Canada has done far more than almost all other nations do for their own native people, and continuing to throw money at the bands isn't helping them be self sufficient or thrive at all.

In my opinion, we need to take a dual approach, but both solutions start with no longer recognizing bands as a conduit for funding. They can still have the bands, of course, and I would encourage them to do so to maintain their heritage. But the land owned by the bands gets equally split among each member of that band and it becomes their personal land to do with what they want. Sell it, keep it, whatever. Heck - I'd even be willing to give them double or triple the current land owned by the bands to make it worth their while. We have lots, so there is no reason to share. (After all, we DID take it away from them back in the day.) The money this land would be worth would be a mint, but it gives them a choice of what they want to do. Do they want money? Sell it. Do they want to live on it? Go for it.

Then we need to make sure that those natives who wish to live like their forefathers did can do so as closely as possible, given the developed nature of Canada. They can hunt, fish, etc. I believe all of this is already in place, but in case it isn't, it needs to be because that's what they could do before their country was invaded. We also need to help with education of the natives, should they choose to accept it. I believe this is also already in place as well. They must have the means to integrate with the rest of Canada if they so choose, but many wouldn't have the means on their own. We offer them all the same services as we offer the rest of our citizens for support systems to help them with either family or individual needs, mental issues or substance abuse. Again, this too is all already in place as far as I know, although if it isn't already it should be available on-site so they are not *required* to come into our cities if they don't want to or can't for whatever reason.

Then, after this is in place for 10 years, they know in advance that the government will cut off all funding and let them find their way. They can choose to live in either an undeveloped OR a developed manner, but they will no longer have the ability to rely on another entity for everything. It isn't that I want to be cold and heartless, but generation after generation has proven that this way does not work and they largely seem to feel no need to be self-sufficient. They can stay on their land or sell it. They can live and work in the cities, or not. They can do whatever the heck they want, as long as it doesn't break our laws or hurt/impose on anyone else.

It's been half a millenium. That works out to some 20 generations. Isn't it about time for the native people to stand up proudly for themselves and their people, and build a life for themselves of responsibility and success? (In whatever form they view success; it likely doesn't directly match my own goals for success. If their definition of success is wearing a loincloth and having a good hunt then they can do that too.) But this handholding isn't helping them at all. It isn't even about the money we pay for it... it's about helping make them a proud and productive people again, and getting them OUT of this cycle.

[JRSC00LUDE]

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I'm inclined to cut Revelations here a little slack because from what I know, he's got a lot of experience working with first nations individuals and communities.

You can see how tricky these discussions can get however, as even a few simple sentences can have people making assumptions about your motives and calling you a racist.

I agree, I really wasn't intending to call him out. I was trying to highlight how that manner of speaking comes across however I don't for a moment believe Revelations himself to be acting racist. I thought I phrased clearly enough but it's obvious I didn't, "not sure of your intent" leaves the door open to that conclusion so my own phrasing was poor/incomplete.

[Seth1968]

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Oh, here we go with another thread about the Natives.

So sure, I'll get involved. /snip/

All excellent points.

We give them a hell of a lot more land, they go back to their "culture" that they hypocritically cry about, get no money, and can't use our services.

OR

They integrate as equals and get no special privileges, etc.

[killramos]

+1 on whatever decision gets made the current system needs to end.

I’m just not convinced that an agreement could ever actually be made.