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Thread: 4 Post Lift in garage

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxt View Post
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    Also the duty cycle is less than the MTE unit. I hooked it up with power to do some tests, and its drawing 9 amps at almost full hoist weight, rated 11.9 amps, 3hp
    The motor is only going to pull as much current as it needs. Its actually a good thing that it does not pull the full listed current. The FLA is just what its rated to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxt View Post
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    single phase should be 17 amps fla. and it looks like they are calling what is a 1.5hp motor a 3hp motor.
    I think your forgetting that the motor is 230V 1phase
    Single phase 120v would be around 17A (3x746=2238W/120= 18.65A)
    But what you have is a single phase 230V (2238/230 =9.7A)

    Obviously the motor is actually a little more than 3hp (11.7Ax230V=2691W / 746 = 3.6hp)

    1hp=746W therefore 3hp = 2238W

    At the end of the day your way overthinking this and there is only 3 acceptable ways you could go about wiring this. The only thing that matters is the FLA and the SF(or lack thereof)

    1. Go strictly off the motor nameplate and assume its going to pull 11.7A with a SF of 1.15(rule i listed above.) use #14AWG copper with a 2pole 15A breaker into the line side of the motor starter. Set the overloads to 13.45 and use #14 wire to the motor. (2p 15A breaker >> #14 >> Motor Starter >> #14 >> Motor)

    2. The other-way is to blindly follow the manual and go with what the manufacture tells you. Since 25A is not a standard breaker size you go to the next size up. Use a 30A breaker and #10Cu to the line side of the motor starter. Overloads still get set to 13.45, and then number #10 into the motor junction box. (2p 30A breaker >> #10 >> motor starter >> #10 >> Motor)

    3.. Use a fused disconnect so you can change wire size since it may be impractical to run #10 Wire to the motor. (2p 30A breaker >> #10 >> Fused [email protected] >> #14 >> motor starter >> #14 >> Motor)


    You already bench tested it and know it only pulls 9A which is well under the rated FLA and well under the 15A #14cu can provide so I would have no problem going with option 1.

    *If its a particularly far run you may need to upsize the wire.

  2. #22
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    Also worth noting if you actually do want to hook it up to 120V you need a whole new motor. This motor WILL NOT work at 120V.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyjoker77 View Post
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    Tons of motors don't list their service factor. Code accounts for that.

    28-306 Rating or trip selection of overload devices (see Appendix B)
    (1) Overload devices responsive to motor current, if of the fixed type, shall be selected or rated or, if of the
    adjustable type, shall be set to trip at not more than the following:
    (a) 125% of the full load current rating of a motor having a marked service factor of 1.15 or greater; or
    (b) 115% of the full load current rating of a motor that does not have a marked service factor or where
    the marked service factor is less than 1.15.
    Initially thats what I thought at as well about the markings, but apparently motors over 1hp and above are supposed to be rated. I have a call in to the approvals branch to find out if there are exceptions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Crazyjoker77 View Post
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    The motor is only going to pull as much current as it needs. Its actually a good thing that it does not pull the full listed current. The FLA is just what its rated to do.



    I think your forgetting that the motor is 230V 1phase
    Single phase 120v would be around 17A (3x746=2238W/120= 18.65A)
    But what you have is a single phase 230V (2238/230 =9.7A)

    Obviously the motor is actually a little more than 3hp (11.7Ax230V=2691W / 746 = 3.6hp)

    1hp=746W therefore 3hp = 2238W

    At the end of the day your way overthinking this and there is only 3 acceptable ways you could go about wiring this. The only thing that matters is the FLA and the SF(or lack thereof)

    1. Go strictly off the motor nameplate and assume its going to pull 11.7A with a SF of 1.15(rule i listed above.) use #14AWG copper with a 2pole 15A breaker into the line side of the motor starter. Set the overloads to 13.45 and use #14 wire to the motor. (2p 15A breaker >> #14 >> Motor Starter >> #14 >> Motor)

    2. The other-way is to blindly follow the manual and go with what the manufacture tells you. Since 25A is not a standard breaker size you go to the next size up. Use a 30A breaker and #10Cu to the line side of the motor starter. Overloads still get set to 13.45, and then number #10 into the motor junction box. (2p 30A breaker >> #10 >> motor starter >> #10 >> Motor)

    3.. Use a fused disconnect so you can change wire size since it may be impractical to run #10 Wire to the motor. (2p 30A breaker >> #10 >> Fused [email protected] >> #14 >> motor starter >> #14 >> Motor)


    You already bench tested it and know it only pulls 9A which is well under the rated FLA and well under the 15A #14cu can provide so I would have no problem going with option 1.

    *If its a particularly far run you may need to upsize the wire.
    I have 2 of these hoists, the older hoist with an emerson motor is 2hp, rated 11.6 on 230, the motor efficiency has to be calculated into is as well so its not a straight forward watt calcuation. The new motor struggles with the heaviest vehicle I have on the hoist where as the emerson never did . The reason I went to ohming it , is because of the way it sounds with the 1 ton truck on the hoist, it ohms very closely to the the 1.5 on my lathe. The emerson on the old hoist draws 11.1 amps under load. If I assume the emerson is 2hp as per label and the new one is 1.5 hp, it lines up almost perfectly with chart amperages. The watt calculations never work out with motors because motors are never 100% efficient, and vary greatly in efficiency.

    http://www.elliottelectric.com/Stati...Alternate.aspx


    The hoist is going to be wired with #10's with a 30 breaker, but its the combination of the manuals wiring suggestion in comparison to the motor nameplate data that made the inspector say something is wrong with the data on either the motor or the manual. A few weeks ago I got a reply from Bendpak that the service factor is 1.15(which means its supposed to be on the label anyway), it took them a week to come up with that number, so I asked them for a sticker that says that to stick to the motor and they haven't been able to provide it, writing it in with a sharpie won't suffice for inspection.
    1987 T62R 20b FC Quaife seq 6sp Motec m800
    1988 20B Peripheral port FC3S
    1994 T51r Kai BB Peripheral port FD

  4. #24
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    @Crazyjoker77
    I read the code in depth as I am not getting anywhere with the sticker.
    What do you think of this:
    So the motor is not rated continuous duty so I took the conductor size as intermittent duty, FLAx1.1=11.7x1.1, 12.87 amps so #12 for the wire.
    Branch circuit for protection for single phase motor 11.7x2.5=29.25a, 20a will work from testing


    And to get around the overload problem.
    28-308 Overload protection not required

    Rule 28-308 a II, an individual branch circuit having overcurrent protection as required by Table 29 if it can be readily
    determined from the starting location that the motor is running;
    Since the control switch is a momentary right on the motor, the above might be work?
    1987 T62R 20b FC Quaife seq 6sp Motec m800
    1988 20B Peripheral port FC3S
    1994 T51r Kai BB Peripheral port FD

  5. #25
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    Pulled out the code book and that all checks out.

    28-106 (2) The conductors of a branch circuit supplying a motor for use on non-continuous duty service shall have an ampacity not less than the current value obtained by multiplying the full load current rating of the motor by the applicable percentage given in Table 27 for the duty involved, or for varying duty service where a deviation has been allowed in accordance with Rule 2-030 by a percentage less than that specified in Table 27.

    11.7x1.1

    28-200 Overcurrent (a) a branch circuit supplying a single motor shall be protected, except as permitted by Item (c), by using an overcurrent device of rating not to exceed the values in Table 29 using the rated full load current of the motor;
    11.7x2.5- 29.25

    28.308 (a, ii) seem like it should apply.


    Only other thing that might apply is possibly needing a disconnect/service switch if its not being fed out of a sub panel in the garage and within view.


    28-600 Disconnecting means required (1) Except as permitted by Subrules (2) and (3), a separate disconnecting means shall be provided for
    (a) each motor branch circuit;

    28-602 Types and ratings of disconnecting means (see Appendix B) (1) A disconnecting means for a motor branch circuit shall be
    (a) a manually operable fused or unfused motor circuit switch that complies with Rule 14-010(b) and has a horsepower rating not less than that of the motor it serves;
    (b) a moulded case switch or circuit breaker that complies with Rule 14-010(b) and has a current rating not less than 115% of the full load current rating of the motor it serves;


    28-604 Location of disconnecting means
    (3) Except as required in Subrule (5), motor and motor starter or controller disconnecting means shall be locate
    (a) within sight of and within 9 m of the motor and the machinery driven by it; and
    (b) within sight of and within 9 m of the motor starter or controller.

  6. #26
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    Thanks for the disconnect advice, I was searching for that..
    I got an email today, they are sending me another power unit, same type as my old original hoist had, the MTE. So I spent all those hours of reading the code for fun I guess. The good news is that I can hook the MTE motor up like a normal motor and not worry about the inspector not agreeing with my code interpretation.
    1987 T62R 20b FC Quaife seq 6sp Motec m800
    1988 20B Peripheral port FC3S
    1994 T51r Kai BB Peripheral port FD

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