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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by you&me View Post
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    Otherwise, the market for these hyper cars is simply driven by supply and demand... It's not about "affording" something, it's about being able to actually get one. Crazy things happen when you tell a very wealthy person that they can't have something they want.
    Absolutely. This is why the Porsche GT cars hold so much value. Is it really that hard to get a new McLaren though? Obviously this 600LT Spyder is looking to be a limited production model, but I didn't think it was too tricky to go get a 720s or 650. It's the McLaren market specifically I was curious about, as others mentioned it seems like they just try to artificially keep the market propped up with high asking prices. But what sort of deals are being made behind closed doors? Or are these cars ever even getting sold?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterman View Post
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    Absolutely. This is why the Porsche GT cars hold so much value. Is it really that hard to get a new McLaren though? Obviously this 600LT Spyder is looking to be a limited production model, but I didn't think it was too tricky to go get a 720s or 650. It's the McLaren market specifically I was curious about, as others mentioned it seems like they just try to artificially keep the market propped up with high asking prices. But what sort of deals are being made behind closed doors? Or are these cars ever even getting sold?
    You mentioned hypercar, which elicited the response you got. Porsche GT and McLaren sport - supersport range may be supercars, but still an echelon beneath hypercar territory.

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    Yeah the P1 and Senna would be McLaren Hypercars imo.

    Getting into a 720s/650s is no problem these days. When the 720s came our, there was a long wait but now you can put in an order no problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterman View Post
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    Absolutely. This is why the Porsche GT cars hold so much value. Is it really that hard to get a new McLaren though? Obviously this 600LT Spyder is looking to be a limited production model, but I didn't think it was too tricky to go get a 720s or 650. It's the McLaren market specifically I was curious about, as others mentioned it seems like they just try to artificially keep the market propped up with high asking prices. But what sort of deals are being made behind closed doors? Or are these cars ever even getting sold?
    Limited, in almost any case except for some Ferraris means actually numbered, like 1-of-XXX. Most "special" series cars (like the Porsche GT cars, the LT McLarens, etc) see a premium when they're first available, but that has more to do with rich guys wanting to out-do their friends by having something cool before their other rich friends do (this is far more common in the states, particularly around Miami and LA)... Typically these premiums are short lived and only last as long as it takes to satisfy the very rich "gotta have it now" crowd (Porsche 991 GT2RS premiums have dropped by
    ~75% in 6 months!).

    The McLarens, outside of the P1 and Senna (and Speedtail) are not hard to get. That's been McLaren's problem since the start. They had sooooo much brand equity built up from the halo of the F1, but they couldn't manage the supply of their new cars and instead raced to sell cars and over-supplied the market (the styling of the 12C didn't help either). If McLaren had instead originally come out with the 650S (basically better looking 12C) and had the patience to produce it in a limited quantity, say 1000 units over 3 years, their brand and resale values would be much stronger... That would have set them up nicely to then rolled out the limited LT series cars that would have had more prestige and eventually move downmarket with the 570/40s.

    The market in Canada is separate and different in a lot of ways from the scenarios I mentioned before. The fact that we have a distributor also acting as the point of sale (and they have a massive lease portfolio that's probably holding the bag on a lot non-existent equity!) causes a lot of distortion. Eventually the market will sort this out - either the prices will drop to be in line with the relative depreciation seen in the US market, or suddenly a bunch of wealthy Canadians figure they really want a McLaren and don't care about relatively overpaying... I think I know which of those is less likely.

    (Sorry for the jumbled post - this is what happens when I try and post between calls and other tasks - hope it makes some sense!)

    Coles notes - no, no non-Ultimate Series Mclaren is currently hard to get, including the 600LT. This is at least partially McLaren's own doing, because they mismanaged their production car launch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyond_ban View Post
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    You mentioned hypercar, which elicited the response you got. Porsche GT and McLaren sport - supersport range may be supercars, but still an echelon beneath hypercar territory.
    Maybe I used the wrong terminology. My bad. I was just speaking out loud about what I've been hearing on all these supercars that are being talked about in here.

    I'm trying to decide myself which way to go. I don't want to buy a McLaren 720s whose value is about to crap out a month after I buy it. Not sure I even want to go the McLaren route though anyway, thinking a Gallardo that's easier to tinker with in the garage might be more suitable for my tendencies.
    Last edited by Misterman; 01-24-2019 at 12:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterman View Post
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    Maybe I used the wrong terminology. My bad. I was just speaking out loud about what I've been hearing on all these supercars that are being talked about in here.

    I'm trying to decide myself which way to go. I don't want to buy a McLaren 720s whose value is about to crap out a month after I buy it. Not sure I even want to go the McLaren route though anyway, thinking a Gallardo that's easier to tinker with in the garage might be more suitable for my tendencies.
    I don't want to crap in your cornflakes, but I would put a Gallardo way (way way) down the list of fun cars I'd drop $100-150k on...

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    Quote Originally Posted by you&me View Post
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    Limited, in almost any case except for some Ferraris means actually numbered, like 1-of-XXX. Most "special" series cars (like the Porsche GT cars, the LT McLarens, etc) see a premium when they're first available, but that has more to do with rich guys wanting to out-do their friends by having something cool before their other rich friends do (this is far more common in the states, particularly around Miami and LA)... Typically these premiums are short lived and only last as long as it takes to satisfy the very rich "gotta have it now" crowd (Porsche 991 GT2RS premiums have dropped by
    ~75% in 6 months!).

    The McLarens, outside of the P1 and Senna (and Speedtail) are not hard to get. That's been McLaren's problem since the start. They had sooooo much brand equity built up from the halo of the F1, but they couldn't manage the supply of their new cars and instead raced to sell cars and over-supplied the market (the styling of the 12C didn't help either). If McLaren had instead originally come out with the 650S (basically better looking 12C) and had the patience to produce it in a limited quantity, say 1000 units over 3 years, their brand and resale values would be much stronger... That would have set them up nicely to then rolled out the limited LT series cars that would have had more prestige and eventually move downmarket with the 570/40s.

    The market in Canada is separate and different in a lot of ways from the scenarios I mentioned before. The fact that we have a distributor also acting as the point of sale (and they have a massive lease portfolio that's probably holding the bag on a lot non-existent equity!) causes a lot of distortion. Eventually the market will sort this out - either the prices will drop to be in line with the relative depreciation seen in the US market, or suddenly a bunch of wealthy Canadians figure they really want a McLaren and don't care about relatively overpaying... I think I know which of those is less likely.

    (Sorry for the jumbled post - this is what happens when I try and post between calls and other tasks - hope it makes some sense!)

    Coles notes - no, no non-Ultimate Series Mclaren is currently hard to get, including the 600LT. This is at least partially McLaren's own doing, because they mismanaged their production car launch.
    You're describing the business model of Pagani, or perhaps Koenigsegg. McLaren never really wanted to be in that space. They wanted to be niche, but somewhat higher volume. I think those are two very different manufacturing and marketing propositions. McLaren's model requires some degree of volume.

    In most other cases, the supply constraints in the supercar/sports car market are completely fake. McLaren tried to do it with me personally on the 600LT. The 675LT was hard to get, but isn't really now. Ferrari's 1ofxxx strategy is also fake - I think we know now that they lie about their production numbers. Porsche will churn out as many GT cars as can get ordered nowadays. As for Canada - I think a lot of the dealer-offered 570s for sale are actually consignment...soon to shift to lease returns. I wonder what the trade-in conversations look like between a current Sport Series owner and the McLaren dealer here look like. I don't really think there is ANY "wholesale" price for a 570 at this point. They simply aren't bought and sold in the open market. There are ZERO private sales on autotrader right now.

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    Here you go!

    Just out! Review from Doug!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfdrS_HbB6c
    The Original !

    1234567, hҦho

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    Quote Originally Posted by you&me View Post
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    I don't want to crap in your cornflakes, but I would put a Gallardo way (way way) down the list of fun cars I'd drop $100-150k on...
    Yeah of course. If I didn't know what my plans were to do with it I'd say the same thing lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4S View Post
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    Here you go!

    Just out! Review from Doug!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfdrS_HbB6c
    Demuro doesn't produce reviews. He just regurgitates the owners manual for 20+ minutes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4S View Post
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    Here you go!

    Just out! Review from Doug!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfdrS_HbB6c
    That car looks so bad.

    Who green-lit those wheels!?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    That car looks so bad.

    Who green-lit those wheels!?!
    Thinking the exact same... tasteless "look at me" spec

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    Would be that bad if it wasn’t for the Lamborghini style wheels.

  14. #74
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    Different wheels and in black. Can't get behind the random splash of silver on the wheels alone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BavarianBeast View Post
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    Would be that bad if it wasn’t for the Lamborghini style wheels.
    Yup.

    I also prefer a cleaner look without the aero. I usually prefer the early versions of a car design... Before the marketing guys get a hold of it and start tacking on body kits. Same reason I bought an amg gts instead of the amg gtr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    Yup.

    I also prefer a cleaner look without the aero. I usually prefer the early versions of a car design... Before the marketing guys get a hold of it and start tacking on body kits. Same reason I bought an amg gts instead of the amg gtr.
    But the Gt-C is just sex with that rear widebody...
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    But the Gt-C is just sex with that rear widebody...
    That's what I'm saying...I prefer the narrow body from a design perspective.

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    I never got the C until I drove behind one for 10 minutes one day. Sold.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.

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    Well I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    You're describing the business model of Pagani, or perhaps Koenigsegg. McLaren never really wanted to be in that space. They wanted to be niche, but somewhat higher volume. I think those are two very different manufacturing and marketing propositions. McLaren's model requires some degree of volume.

    In most other cases, the supply constraints in the supercar/sports car market are completely fake. McLaren tried to do it with me personally on the 600LT. The 675LT was hard to get, but isn't really now. Ferrari's 1ofxxx strategy is also fake - I think we know now that they lie about their production numbers. Porsche will churn out as many GT cars as can get ordered nowadays. As for Canada - I think a lot of the dealer-offered 570s for sale are actually consignment...soon to shift to lease returns. I wonder what the trade-in conversations look like between a current Sport Series owner and the McLaren dealer here look like. I don't really think there is ANY "wholesale" price for a 570 at this point. They simply aren't bought and sold in the open market. There are ZERO private sales on autotrader right now.


    Regarding the market in Canada, we totally agree and, again, are basically saying the same thing... The marks, er, buyers of the 570s and 720s are holding the bag (your term I think) and the dealers don't know what to do with used cars coming back in when they've got piles of inventory, sometimes available at a heavy discount. There is a well-defined wholesale market on the 570s in the US, which certainly influences the wholesale offers in Canada. Wholesale on any exotic in Canada is a bit of a game, as there are really only a handful of guys that will cut a cheque and if the owner's aren't willing to take those offers, you end up with a bunch of cars being consigned as a "pre-trade" before the mark, er, owner's next McLaren arrives (just as we've both said).

    Regarding Mclaren, there is a balance that can be achieved between mass market over supply and the niche of automotive jewelry that is Pagani and Koenigsegg where production is counted in the dozens per year - Ferrari did it masterfully right up until they went public.

    What I'm saying about McLaren is essentially something I'm regurgitating from a long conversation I had with a multi-franchise McLaren dealer just a few days ago (a timely thread topic on beyond.ca, no doubt). He's been there almost from the start and knows all the gory details of how the sausage is made, so to speak. What he said (and has said by him and many others for years) is that Mclaren would have been well served to have more closely followed Ferraris playbook (Enzo famously said he'd build one less car than he could sell). They already had the strong racing heritage and the halo granted by the F1 is unmatched by modern cars. Instead, the 12C was a miss in the styling and noise department and they rushed out too many cars, to too many dealers, too quickly. The early adopters got burned and no one's forgotten it since... It's not the end of the world - there are plenty of people that don't mind losing $100 or $200k over a couple years of ownership and just consider it the cost of entry - but they'd rather not. I think it's hard to argue that making a sacrifice in the first few years as a automaker would probably have McLaren (and their dealers) in a better position today.

    But hey, if McLaren had done all that, this thread probably wouldn't exist for a couple of reasons 1) buying the new 600LT would be a no-brainer from a driving, ownership and financial point of view and 2) BB, as someone that's new to the brand, wouldn't even be offered the opportunity

    Anyways, I'm sorry for dragging this way off topic. I've thought about it more, watched some youtube videos on the 600LT and now I've got to say - DO IT, BB!

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