Oil sands producers posting record profits and production?

[Gestalt]

So wtf then? Plus we knew bitumen prices were at risk in 2007 aparantly. And we've triple tar sands production since then.

So as usual, scare tactics.

The real issue is joke royalties who's rates have been lowered for 40 years by crooked industry politicians.
https://thetyee.ca/Analysis/2018/11/...kesn9QlIA-nwjA

[Mogg]

Lol. Each one of your posts gets better and better.

Please cite for me which companies are the ones that "say no market intervention or change is necessary."
Where do companies get billions of dollars to build refineries from? Why would big mony investors get the O&G industry money when ROCE is so low?

Pull your head out of your ass, and if you cant do that. At least be educated on the topic you are trolling about.

[Sugarphreak]

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[ZenOps]

If the wheat is cheap, and you still sell the bread for $5 a loaf - Someone is making a shit ton of money.

Its the exact same with oil and gasoline.

[Darell_n]

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If the wheat is cheap, and you still sell the bread for $5 a loaf - Someone is making a shit ton of money.

Its the exact same with oil and gasoline.

$5 pays for the labour, energy costs to make it, labour to make it, transport it and put it on a shelf for you, packaging, probably a dozen other steps I haven’t thought of. Buy the cheap flour and make it yourself or pay 30 people to sell it to you.

[Misterman]

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$5 pays for the labour, energy costs to make it, labour to make it, transport it and put it on a shelf for you, packaging, probably a dozen other steps I haven’t thought of. Buy the cheap flour and make it yourself or pay 30 people to sell it to you.

How do you refine your own gasoline?

[Misterman]

Talk about biased BS reporting.

The very first few paragraphs talks about some report in 2007 recommending that manufacturers add value to the crude by refining it locally. Then it goes on to say that "Instead............." Instead nothing. That's exactly what they did!! How the hell do you think we have the NWR refinery in Redwater now?

If they really want to profit from the oil industry here, the government should stop allowing foreign entities to buy everything. What benefit is there for some American company to refine the product here? They can go refine down south and sell it back to us at a massive profit and benefit their country.

[ZenOps]

Its all interconnected. The refinery might physically be in the USA, but it can still profit Canadian investors.

There are some instances where companies like Google and Amazon might buy an island and move its headquarters there, but that's rare because as is Google pays about 4.9% in taxes even though they headquarter in the USA. Personal taxes for both Canadian and US citizens (the herd) are closer to 33 to 50%.


Corporate tax works very differently, the argument that headquarters should be in Canada can be a fallacy. Assuming that taxation is the best revenue stream may only be because you have been blindsided by taxation at a personal level all your life.

At this particular point in time, selling Canadian oil to the USA at $15 barrel is probably doing wonders from keeping Trump from sending 20,000 armed troops to the Canadian border. Once Trump is gone, we can bring the price back up to "normal". If you own a stake in both the production and refining, the intermediate price - means absolutely nothing, literally nothing as long as you sell the gasoline at the same price. IE: If you own half the wheat farm and half the breadmaker, and the price of the loaf stays the same: The price of the wheat means nothing.

Lets not forget, the USA *will point and shoot guns at you and your wife and children* if they don't like the way you do business (communism in the 1970's) and a shit ton of white British people to gain "independence" and freedom from taxation oh so many years ago.

Weirder analogy: Trump can give you a hotel room at $300 a night, or $1 a night plus $299 services for cleaning the doorknob on the way in. What is the difference?

[Misterman]

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Its all interconnected. The refinery might physically be in the USA, but it can still profit Canadian investors.

There are some instances where companies like Google and Amazon might buy an island and move its headquarters there, but that's rare because as is Google pays about 4.9% in taxes even though they headquarter in the USA. Personal taxes for both Canadian and US citizens (the herd) are closer to 33 to 50%.


Corporate tax works very differently, the argument that headquarters should be in Canada can be a fallacy. Assuming that taxation is the best revenue stream may only be because you have been blindsided by taxation at a personal level all your life.

Hard to guess who you're replying to as your post isn't very relevant to anything said thus far?

[Gestalt]

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"Oilsands" is the proper name

Mods can you update the title please... not so much because I care, more because I know it will annoy OP

They should abolish royalties IMO, they would spur on new business and end up making more on the income tax gains in the end. People who believe in royalties just don't understand how the world works... better to work together than be a parasite.

It was always tar or bitumen be cause that's what it is. Renaming it "oil sands' was a marketing move to make it seem nice. Even old predator trap dinosor guys in old docmentary called it tar.

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If the wheat is cheap, and you still sell the bread for $5 a loaf - Someone is making a shit ton of money.

Its the exact same with oil and gasoline.

Except for Alberta residents who lose because they sell their resource at a loss and we suffer health and clean up costs

[ZenOps]

True enough, technically they can sell a barrel of oil for $1 and the resulting taxes on it will be miniscule. But I think the benefit of keeping the USA from pointing nukes at Canada, or building a border wall is worth the few years we will have to endure Trump type pricing. Trump will literally *only* be happy when everyone else is losing money (at least on the books)

Putting down a pipeline also blurs the line between who actually owns the oil. One big reason to not have a pipeline.

Burns "slant drilling" is basically just a pipeline, underground. The USA could make an argument that they "own" more of it than Canada because they built the infrastructure.

As soon as you have to put it on a railcar, its automatically tallyable and you have a "point of charge" like cleaning the doorknob, where you can charge whatever you want for said shipping service. Arguably you want to ship by rail when the other party you are trading with is completely untrustworthy... Yup.. Completely untrustworthy.

Kitimat makes sense because you still have to put it on an oceangoing vessel (point of charge)

As an Albertan Citizen, one must hope that they are "taxing" the room at the same rate that they are "taxing" the doorknob cleaning service, in which case - its all fine by me.


At least we aren't Huawei which basically has to stop doing business entirely.

[Misterman]

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True enough, technically they can sell a barrel of oil for $1 and the resulting taxes on it will be miniscule. But I think the benefit of keeping the USA from pointing nukes at Canada, or building a border wall is worth the few years we will have to endure Trump type pricing. Trump will literally *only* be happy when everyone else is losing money (at least on the books)

Putting down a pipeline also blurs the line between who actually owns the oil. One big reason to not have a pipeline.

Burns "slant drilling" is basically just a pipeline, underground. The USA could make an argument that they "own" more of it than Canada because they built the infrastructure.

As soon as you have to put it on a railcar, its automatically tallyable and you have a "point of charge" like cleaning the doorknob, where you can charge whatever you want for said shipping service. Arguably you want to ship by rail when the other party you are trading with is completely untrustworthy... Yup.. Completely untrustworthy.

Kitimat makes sense because you still have to put it on an oceangoing vessel (point of charge)

As an Albertan Citizen, one must hope that they are "taxing" the room at the same rate that they are "taxing" the doorknob cleaning service, in which case - its all fine by me.


At least we aren't Huawei which basically has to stop doing business entirely.

\


You're getting a little out in crazy land. What you added to your other post above is not correct. Because that's not how these big companies do their accounting. Upstream and downstream are 2 entirely different entities on the books. So since they buy the oil from themselves, it absolutely matters what the price of oil is. On the books they make triple the margins they were making on refined products prior to oil price crash.

As far as pipelines, anything that goes into them is strictly metered and accounted for. So what you're saying makes little sense. The best you could come up with for this sort of straw grasping argument, is that the US could try to add a service fee for anything running through the line in their country. Which is still a silly argument since a pipeline down south would just give them cheaper transport costs than barging it in from the other side of the planet, that in itself is a discount.

Kitimat isn't about oil. It's about NGL.

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Except for Alberta residents who lose because they sell their resource at a loss and we suffer health and clean up costs

Except that when a company makes big dollars on better margins, the government collects tax on that. So Alberta still does profit from it.

[kertejud2]

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People who believe in royalties just don't understand how the world works...

People who believe in receiving money for something you own don't understand how the world works?

[ExtraSlow]

Guys, not sure if you all know this, but there's a setting on beyond.ca that allows you to see the name of the person who posts a new thread, and you can use that information to evaluate the likelihood of valuable content occurring in that thread.

Once I found that feature, it changed my life. PM me if you need help figuring this out.

[Gestalt]

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People who believe in receiving money for something you own don't understand how the world works?

Many don't understand and want to give multi national corps free pass to take what they want and shit in our yard and pollute our air.

Its weird to me.

[Misterman]

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Many don't understand and want to give multi national corps free pass to take what they want and shit in our yard and pollute our air.

Its weird to me.

Believe it or not, there is plenty of space in the middle there.

[ZenOps]

Technically you could have bought as much iron ore as you wanted for $14 per ton two decades ago. Reason being, anyone who buys 1 or 20 million tons of iron usually has a steel factory, so in essence - anyone who buys iron already is fully vested, much like owning both the wheat field and the bread factory.

Thus, the main reason to keep the prices low - was to avoid paying taxes to anyone and everyone. Is iron ore worth $14 per ton? Realistically no, its much higher than that because you have to at least dig it out of the ground and transport it.

I will reiterate with more examples if you need them: If you own the means of production the intermediate price of a refineable commodity is mostly irrelevant. If you want to avoid taxation, sell it for pennies per ton and then buy it from yourself at a nickel per ton. You will then be able to get away with being taxed, a half penny per ton.

Human labor needed to produce 2,000 loaves of bread is astoundingly low. Buy wheat at $200 per ton, put in factory at one end, mix, pour and bake and sell at $10,000 per ton. There is a reason why Galen Weston is the #2 richest man in Canada.

If you think the US is trustworthy... Well, that's just an opinion that I do not share. I hope that's what people call me crazy on, and not the current economic reality of owning means of mass production.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eel_production China #1 at producing 800 million tons of steel each and every year.

[Sugarphreak]

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[ZenOps]

The other thing to consider, that we as Canadians almost never consider is: We can sell it, but how do we actually get the USA to consume more oil? Now, you can say - make them double up on their commutes by making them work extra hard delivering single sheet paper documents on Saturdays and Sundays - but that seems more and more like a less likely scenario as time goes forward.

The big one, is unsurprisingly - Steel production. If the USA wants to produce 100 million tons of steel every year its gonna take a load of energy. If they want to match China they are going to have to probably get much closer to 1 billion tons of steel production every year. Steel which then, would arguably be made into factories that make bread - for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_...e_Steel_Tariff

The only other way I could think of, is a national holiday where you buy guitars that spew gasoline into the air 40 feet and then set it alight.

[Misterman]

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The other thing to consider, that we as Canadians almost never consider is: We can sell it, but how do we actually get the USA to consume more oil? Now, you can say - make them double up on their commutes by making them work extra hard delivering single sheet paper documents on Saturdays and Sundays - but that seems more and more like a less likely scenario as time goes forward.

The big one, is unsurprisingly - Steel production. If the USA wants to produce 100 million tons of steel every year its gonna take a load of energy. If they want to match China they are going to have to probably get much closer to 1 billion tons of steel production every year. Steel which then, would arguably be made into factories that make bread - for example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_...e_Steel_Tariff

The only other way I could think of, is a national holiday where you buy guitars that spew gasoline into the air 40 feet and then set it alight.

We wouldn't need the US to consume more if we had tidewater access. Developing nations will drastically increase use in the foreseeable future.