Equalization Payments. Please School Me.

[davidI]

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A referendum on equalization would be like a referendum on a follow on push on separation. It's a good way to test the waters.

If Albertans turned out to favour separation it would prove to be an excellent negotiation tool with the Feds.

Quebec has gotten a lot of benefits just to appease them and avoid further separitist movement. Alberta has tried everything else so it's time to threaten to leave if nothing is done.

[HiTempguy1]

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So why is Kenney and other people trying to act like spending money on an issue that they know won't apply would be anything other than a waste of time and money, and nothing more than a distraction?

I don't know, why is Notley going on about about pipelines and refineries we know won't get built? Truly, a question for the ages. And before you get all "whataboutism", you actually started the whataboutism on your current track. Since your viewpoint is known from the time you begin typing, most things you post are whataboutism. Why did the NDP hire 50k employees we didn't need? Why are they running deficits they can't afford? Why why why? We know the answers to these things. While I'd love to call you an idiot, I know you actually aren't in the purest sense. Delusional, but not stupid.

A new party is going to be hesitant to deal with the result of a large unemployment spike that comes with cutting over 50,000 jobs.

I never said it would happen overnight you dolt (ok, maybe I take back the stupid part). They'll move as fast as is politically expedient, as do all politicians. People like you would cry bloody murder. It's the liberal way, divide groups up as much as possible and give each one incentives to continue voting for them. Then when a government comes in to take back financial control over the gov, they cry bloody murder when their entitlements get taken away.

I'll say it again: if you have something of actual value besides pointing out the UCP and Kenney are politicians, I'd love to hear it. I'm under the strong impression you don't have any opinion besides Kenney = bad and can do nothing good.

[pheoxs]

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If Albertans turned out to favour separation it would prove to be an excellent negotiation tool with the Feds.

Quebec has gotten a lot of benefits just to appease them and avoid further separitist movement. Alberta has tried everything else so it's time to threaten to leave if nothing is done.

Quebec has 78 seats in the House of Commons. Alberta and BC combined only have 76. That is why Quebec gets more attention. Politicians main job is to get re-elected. They’ll always appease where the votes are.

[kertejud2]

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Quebec has gotten a lot of benefits just to appease them and avoid further separitist movement. Alberta has tried everything else so it's time to threaten to leave if nothing is done.

But that's not why they've gotten them. The Clarity Act killed the separatist movement in Quebec. All the benefits have come from it having 78 seats in the HOC and having them up for sale.

Libs were at risk of losing the federalist vote to the Conservatives at a time they were also losing support in suburban Ontario. The Conservatives could also win some Bloc seats because they were a non-federalist option that could actually govern, but after the sponsorship scandal could split the federalist vote. The CPC threw money and 'distinct nation' status to keep them content, maybe steal federalist votes so they're either winning seats, or winning the Bloc seats (which prevents the Liberals from winning seats). The Liberals promised and committed money because Quebec is necessary for their path to a majority, even moreso now than when PET and Chretien were winning majorities.

The separatist movement has been on a steep decline since 2000 (and the focus on it was a reason the PQs have dipped into irrelevance), people put way too much weight into it for why Quebec has been getting 'free stuff.'

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Quebec has 78 seats in the House of Commons. Alberta and BC combined only have 76. That is why Quebec gets more attention. Politicians main job is to get re-elected. They’ll always appease where the votes are.

And in Alberta's case, the seats are pretty rigid. Not only do the Liberals know it's a waste of money to spend money here to win seats, the Conservatives know it's a waste of money to spend here to win seats.

[Buster]

Kert made a post that is correct. Wth.

[Buster]

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If Albertans turned out to favour separation it would prove to be an excellent negotiation tool with the Feds.

Quebec has gotten a lot of benefits just to appease them and avoid further separitist movement. Alberta has tried everything else so it's time to threaten to leave if nothing is done.

I disagree. What can Alberta negotiate that would be of interest to the province?

How can you negotiate reforms to confederation? How do you negotiate a new system if representation which could be considered democratic?

After all- equalization and pipelines aren't the problems. They are symptoms of the problems. The problem is that the system is not sufficiently democratic/representative.

Without negotiating the real problem... It's just all placating and window dressing.

[kertejud2]

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And before you get all "whataboutism", you actually started the whataboutism on your current track.

By referencing a direct subject topic of the article posted?

I don't think you know how Whataboutism works.

I never said it would happen overnight you dolt (ok, maybe I take back the stupid part). They'll move as fast as is politically expedient, as do all politicians.

And that 'political expedience' draws out longer when the blame for a non-balanced budget can be focused on the feds by distracting people with something you'd know to be ineffective. It's just political games and people are falling for it.

[HiTempguy1]

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By referencing a direct subject topic of the article posted?

I don't think you know how Whataboutism works.

By arguing about wasting money, a subject that this thread is not about. Derp. I know you don't understand how whataboutism works, because everytime you call someone out on it, it's usually been after you've been performing some of it.

And that 'political expedience' draws out longer when the blame for a non-balanced budget can be focused on the feds by distracting people with something you'd know to be ineffective. It's just political games and people are falling for it.

With Ontario falling out of equalization favour and turning conservative, and the possibility of a conservative federal government next year, its not ineffective at all. Changes to equalization could be part of a platform to run on, in order to get Ontario votes. What we are currently doing is REALLY ineffective. You're awfully black and white on this subject considering progressives are supposed to be all about that "grey area" and "nuance". Even if ineffective, it certainly is better policy than what the NDP is currently doing (nothing but appeasement, and appeasement is a PROVEN failure strategy, hence where we are with pipelines and O&G in general).

I get that for you, its tough to separate the ideological from the practical as you'd go down with the ship claiming it wasn't sinking as long as it supported your ideals. It doesn't make them a reality. I award you points for sticking to them and believing in them as at least you are honest, but your inability to view reality takes away from all of that.

[Buster]

It's a difficult time for progressives globally right now.

[kertejud2]

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By arguing about wasting money, a subject that this thread is not about. Derp.

My argument was more the irony of a political leader demanding change in a system his party never bothered to address in any significant way even though it was as big an issue then as it is now. But whatever you say.

With Ontario falling out of equalization favour and turning conservative, and the possibility of a conservative federal government next year, its not ineffective at all. Changes to equalization could be part of a platform to run on, in order to get Ontario votes.

I'd be wary about any equalization changes that push Ontario into equalization favor, given their population. That $8B would need to be made up somewhere, and it certainly won't be with Quebec.

You're potentially looking at a switch from "ineffective" to down right counter-productive. Especially with the way Doug's promised to spend money.

[Misterman]

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My argument was more the irony of a political leader demanding change in a system his party never bothered to address in any significant way even though it was as big an issue then as it is now. But whatever you say.

It's definitely a bigger issue now. When you're worth 100mill, and someone steals 1 million, you're still rich so it's stomachable. When you're worth 2mill and someone steals 1mill, heads need to roll.

[HiTempguy1]

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My argument was more the irony

Oh, so your whataboutism was about something that had little to do with the OP besides whatabouting the UCP with previous federal govs. I see.

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I'd be wary about any equalization changes that push Ontario into equalization favor

Do you have any idea what a preachy cunt you sound like? No wonder I don't like you, shades of Trudeau No shit Sherlock, it wasn't an absolute.

Literally walking out your door in the morning can have negative consequences, but you still leave your house

[kertejud2]

[QUOTE=HiTempguy1;4767597]Oh, so your whataboutism was about something that had little to do with the OP besides whatabouting the UCP with previous federal govs. I see.

I wasn't the first one to bring up Kenney, I didn't drag Kenney unwillingly to an equalization debate, I commented on the article where Kenney threw himself into the middle of it demanding changes to it, in a thread about equalization and why it is the way it is.

You really have a tough time letting go that I call you out on your whining it seems like a bit of an obsession.

Do you have any idea what a preachy cunt you sound like? No wonder I don't like you, shades of Trudeau No shit Sherlock, it wasn't an absolute.

Literally walking out your door in the morning can have negative consequences, but you still leave your house

What's more likely, an equalization formula that is beneficial for all the have's equally, and bad for the have-nots equally. Or one that will find a way to push Ontario closer to 'have-not' status, while not affecting Quebec, on the backs of the other have provinces that need to make up that $8B net difference Ontario is looking at right now?

When you figure out what is more likely, that's when you decide whether or not it's a good thing Ontario is complaining about it.

[davidI]

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I disagree. What can Alberta negotiate that would be of interest to the province?

How can you negotiate reforms to confederation? How do you negotiate a new system if representation which could be considered democratic?

After all- equalization and pipelines aren't the problems. They are symptoms of the problems. The problem is that the system is not sufficiently democratic/representative.

Without negotiating the real problem... It's just all placating and window dressing.

Under the constitution the Federal government is responsible for infrastructure project and equalization. The system may not be sufficiently representative from our perspective but sadly there isn't some great conspiracy around seats. If anyone gets shafted, it's Ontario: http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx...t=index&lang=e

I haven't been able to find the latest figures (something tells me the difficulty in finding federal revenues per province is intentional) but I'm pretty sure Alberta gives the Federal government something like $47 billion in annual revenues of which we only receive back 60-70% of. That's a huge amount of money and that's our negotiating leverage. If Ottawa actually believes they could lose all that money, they may be willing to play ball.

Edit: I found this reported but still can't find anything through StatsCan - perhaps my $47 billion gross figure is actually too low:

Each year, Albertans collectively pay in much more in that we receive back. Understanding the transfer effects of these other federal programs explains how it is that between 2007 and 2015, Alberta’s net contribution to the federal government was $221 billion, or an average of over $24 billion a year.

[msommers]

Posted this on FB when some dipshit by the name of Peter M decided to poke the bear (that is, telling Albertans we have a victim complex and had this coming)

https://www.wildernesscommittee.org/...wNEC57_ww_m2t4

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...uSEhRAxMJHbcjM

Notable quotes:

"Between 2004 and 2014, 32.5 percent of all private sector jobs created in Canada were created in Alberta."

"Between 2007 and 2015, Albertans paid $188.6 billion more in federal taxes than they received in transfers and federal programs"

"This report shows that Alberta has contributed disproportionately to the
economic prosperity and fiscal health of Canada, particularly during the
energy boom between 2004 and 2014. Ensuring that Alberta once again
becomes an engine of growth is crucial not just to Albertans, but to Canadians
outside of Alberta, as they benefit from Alberta’s disproportionate
contribution to federal revenue"

[Buster]

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Under the constitution the Federal government is responsible for infrastructure project and equalization. The system may not be sufficiently representative from our perspective but sadly there isn't some great conspiracy around seats. If anyone gets shafted, it's Ontario: http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx...t=index&lang=e

I haven't been able to find the latest figures (something tells me the difficulty in finding federal revenues per province is intentional) but I'm pretty sure Alberta gives the Federal government something like $47 billion in annual revenues of which we only receive back 60-70% of. That's a huge amount of money and that's our negotiating leverage. If Ottawa actually believes they could lose all that money, they may be willing to play ball.

Edit: I found this reported but still can't find anything through StatsCan - perhaps my $47 billion gross figure is actually too low:

Each year, Albertans collectively pay in much more in that we receive back. Understanding the transfer effects of these other federal programs explains how it is that between 2007 and 2015, Alberta’s net contribution to the federal government was $221 billion, or an average of over $24 billion a year.

"Under the Constitution" the federal government can continue to consider what Alberta wants to be irrelevant.

[davidI]

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"Under the Constitution" the federal government can continue to consider what Alberta wants to be irrelevant.

There was a clarity act passed after the Quebec referendum that would force them to conduct good faith negotiations if Alberta voted to separate. It's obviously not that simple but I still stand by my belief we have far more leverage to negotiate if the country is at risk.

[Quizzes]

Nothing to add except this recent article regarding equalization and Quebec.

https://energynow.ca/2018/12/an-open...-deidra-garyk/

EnergyNow is pleased to publish this Open Letter by Deidra Garyk, who works in the Canadian energy industry. If you agree with Deidra please share her letter on your own social media channels. We must keep up our collective voice to make sure the majority of Canadians are heard. Pipelines are vital to getting a competitive price for our CANADIAN oil and generating tax revenue for a federal treasury that benefits all of Canadians. Our voice is being heard.

Premier Francois Legault

Édifice Honoré-Mercier, 3e étage
835, boul. René-Lévesque Est
Québec (Québec) G1A 1B4

Dear Mr. Legault,

I am writing regarding your comment at the First Ministers’ Meeting that “there is no social acceptability for a pipeline that would pass through Quebec territory”, essentially vetoing TransCanada Corporation’s ability to construct the Energy East pipeline that other provinces would like built. I find this comment peculiar considering that Quebec is already importing oil through pipelines from the USA. Perhaps you and your fellow Quebecers forgot or are unaware of this fact.

Building pipelines across this country is symbolic of our solidarity. Much like the equalization payments that your province benefits from handsomely, paid for in part by the “dirty oil” that you don’t want transported through your province.

You likely already know all of this; however, there’s value in repeating a few facts until the message is heard.
•Quebec is the second largest consumer of oil products in Canada, consuming 355,000 barrels/ day. 56% of this oil is non-Canadian.
•Source countries of imports of oil and equivalents to Canada in 2017 were: United States, 61%; Saudi Arabia, 12%; Azerbaijan, 6%; Norway, 5%; Nigeria, 4%.
•The oil sands account for 9.9% of Canada’s total GHG emissions and 0.1% of global emissions.
•The Government of Alberta requires that companies remediate and reclaim 100% of the land after the oil sands have been extracted, meaning that it is returned to a self-sustaining ecosystem with local vegetation and wildlife.
•Canada exported 3.3 million barrels per day to the U.S. in 2017, 99% of all Canadian crude oil and equivalent exports. Being limited to one market impacts our country’s competitiveness. •Further information on the above is available on the Natural Resources Canada website.

•Since equalization was created, Quebec has received $221 billion, or 51% of all payments.
•Quebec received $11.1 billion in equalization payments in 2018.
•Those payments will increase by 18% to $13.1 billion dollars in 2019, which is more than all the other provinces combined will receive.

I understand that you are very supportive of hydro power projects because it is a form of “clean”, inexpensive energy. If you have flown over the desert outside Las Vegas, you can clearly see the destruction to the land caused by the Hoover Dam. Closer to home, the Site C dam in BC will flood 55 square kilometres of river valley, negatively effecting wildlife, agricultural land and First Nations’ communities. I don’t think those whose homes and livelihoods are impacted would consider the energy “clean” or “inexpensive”. And I won’t even get into the continued cost overruns on many hydro projects.

As James Freeman Clark said, “The difference between a politician and a statesman is that a politician thinks about the next election while the statesman thinks about the next generation.” It’s time to be a statesman and not a politician looking out for your own personal gain.

Sincerely,

Deidra Garyk

[suntan]

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The separatist movement has been on a steep decline since 2000 (and the focus on it was a reason the PQs have dipped into irrelevance), people put way too much weight into it for why Quebec has been getting 'free stuff.'

Good God you're a fucking moron.

Quebec threatens to separate.

Canandian gov't bribes them to all hell.

Quebec's willingness to separate goes down.

PEOPLE LOVE MONEY YOU FUCKING DUNCE CAP.

[kertejud2]

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Quebec threatens to separate.

Canandian gov't bribes them to all hell.

Quebec's willingness to separate goes down.

You misattribute why the Canadian government bribed them to all hell, which was because they could be bribed in exchange for being the path to power.

Quebec hasn't had a party in a position to threaten separation since 2003, and has had two straight elections where a party that actively opposes separation won majorities. Marois banked on bringing it up again when she called an election in 2014 hoping to get a majority, and turned it into the party's worst defeat since its inception, only to be bested by the most recent election where they no longer have official party status.

So in a time when Quebec has had two straight elections where neither the premier or the leader of the opposition is threatening separation, we should be seeing the bribes go down. But we aren't (we're seeing the opposite), because that isn't really why they got the bribes int the first place. If the Liberals want a majority they need Quebec. If the Conservatives want a majority they need to control how Quebec votes. If the NDP wants to be the Official Opposition again they need Quebec. Quebec has 78 seats that are able to swing any which way depending on who treats them best. The province is for sale and there are willing buyers.

What does Alberta separation affect? One party, and they'd still have a path to a majority without it. They get this support for free.