Alberta Separatism is starting to go mainstream

[Antonito]

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Relax. We all lose e-debates from time to time.

Congrats on winning an argument that the other person wasn’t having

Kert never argued that Alberta can’t negotiate to separate, but that it can’t negotiate a separation Albertans would want. It would essentially go like this:

Alberta: we want to legally separate!

Canada: ok, well as per all these legal hurdles we’ve made, this requires everyone to agree. our offer is that we’ll keep everything of value. Do you agree?

Alberta: No!

Canada: well that’s a shame, seems negotiations have broken down. Better luck next time

What the fuck would be the point?

[Buster]

That's not how negotiations would go at all

[Antonito]

That’s adorable, but facts don’t care about your feelings

[ExtraSlow]

It's really amazing how many constitutional law experts we have on beyond.ca.

[kertejud2]

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It's really amazing how many constitutional law experts we have on beyond.ca.

Constitutional law doesn’t come into play until after negotiations are finished and the province’s can have their own referendums on amending the Constitution to allow the separation.

[Misterman]

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Fair but the point still stands. I think we’d all agree, most people that don’t have a connection to O&G don’t understand the dire situation Alberta is in. They are going to be unlikely to vote for separation based on economic reasons. Therefore you need another card to play, like cultural differences, Alberta doesn’t have that. If you’ve ever traveled to Quebec you know it feels like a different country. Quebec City reminds me of a few places I’ve been to in Europe, the place and the people are so distinct from anywhere else in Canada and they know it.

I think it’s delusional to think there are that many Albertans united against Ottawa to pass a separation vote if it even made it that far.

Thus this whole thing is a giant waste of taxpayer money. I’d rather my money go towards a government that will fight tooth and nail to get pipelines built than have them entertaining the idea of separating.

Personally, I don't feel that being a bunch of rude cunts that look down upon anyone that doesn't speak a language that causes vaginas to slam shut like bear traps, is much of a "Culture", so much as it is just an attitude. And if having a shitty attitude constitutes reasonable grounds to talk about separation, Alberta should qualify, as a good portion of citizens here are becoming more and more jaded by the sub par treatment from our federal government.

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Well that and thier large voter-rich population base. They control nearly a quarter of the house of parliament.

Which ironically doesn't make a good case for the federal government to want to keep them. It's actually more reason to let them leave. Why would any politician want to continually deal with conceding things to Quebec that completely polarize the rest of the country/voter base? It leaves them playing this game of balance to try and make Quebec happy, without pissing off too much of the rest of the country. If you just tell them to fuck off, then it becomes much easier to pander to your voter base and ensure re-election.

[Buster]

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Constitutional law doesn’t come into play until after negotiations are finished and the province’s can have their own referendums on amending the Constitution to allow the separation.

Nope. The referendum could and would occur to trigger the negotiations. Alberta will have limited or no interest in the Canadian Constitution

[ExtraSlow]

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Constitutional law doesn’t come into play until after negotiations are finished and the province’s can have their own referendums on amending the Constitution to allow the separation.

First rule of constitutional law is knowing when to talk about constitutional law.

[kertejud2]

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Nope. The referendum could and would occur to trigger the negotiations. Alberta will have limited or no interest in the Canadian Constitution

Alberta can not unilaterally secede, so the constitution matters greatly.

The federal government can’t enter negotiations without the other provinces and the First Nations and the federal government can’t grant a “pathway to succession” without a Constitutional amendment. In no small part because that is what actually makes Alberta a thing.

So it doesn’t really matter what Alberta would be interested in. You are a shit negotiator.

[Chandler_Racing]

Complete non sense. While we certainly have our issues this is not a feasible solution:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...#comments-area

[Buster]

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Alberta can not unilaterally secede, so the constitution matters greatly.

The federal government can’t enter negotiations without the other provinces and the First Nations and the federal government can’t grant a “pathway to succession” without a Constitutional amendment. In no small part because that is what actually makes Alberta a thing.

So it doesn’t really matter what Alberta would be interested in. You are a shit negotiator.

Alberta citizens would have a mandate and self determination. It would be up to the government of Canada whether or not Alberta needs to act unilaterally. Alberta could secede unilaterally if that's what the citizens give the mandate to do.

And again... You should probably just relax. I'm getting the sense you work in government at some level? Federal? Provincial? Or maybe (lol) municipal.

[Buster]

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Complete non sense. While we certainly have our issues this is not a feasible solution:

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...#comments-area

None of those objections are insurmountable. And in many cases they are smaller issues than trying to reformat confederation from within. Reformatting confederation as it stands will never happen... People don't give up power without being forced to do so

One unexpected outcome that they mention is that Alberta can be divided. I don't think that would be an issue... But it would crop up in bc. Many parts of that province would want to join Alberta in departing confederation.

[kertejud2]

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It would be up to the government of Canada whether or not Alberta needs to act unilaterally.

'Dear Alberta,

You can't secede unilaterally.

Signed,

The Government of Canada and the Supreme Court of Canada"

[Buster]

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'Dear Alberta,

You can't secede unilaterally.

Signed,

The Government of Canada and the Supreme Court of Canada"

You realize the entire point of secession is the rejection of Ottawa's authority. Honestly people, let's at least pretend that we're trying here.

[kertejud2]

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You realize the entire point of secession is the rejection of Ottawa's authority. Honestly people, let's at least pretend that we're trying here.

Is Alberta violently rejecting their authority?

Unless we are, we are forced to follow the legal framework laid out. The very framework YOU alluded to that brings the federal government to the negotiating table.

[Buster]

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Is Alberta violently rejecting their authority?

Unless we are, we are forced to follow the legal framework laid out. The very framework YOU alluded to that brings the federal government to the negotiating table.

I'm only interested in the Federal government negotiating. I'm less interested in the framework of the negotiations. That can be an initial negotiation, I don't care. Bring the provinces, bring the aboriginal communities, bring your aunt betty and her bridge club. Don't care.

I think it would make sense for Ottawa to perceive a popular desire to leave and participate in an orderly departure, rather than behaving like a petulant child and forcing the process to be acrimonious. That would benefit no one. Besides, if someone wants to break up with you, trying to force them to stay seems pointless.

What I find kinda funny is that Ottawa is generally willing to recognize the rights of citizens to self-determination. Some examples off the top of my head Tibet (kinda), Kosovo, Taiwan (kinda), Palestine, etc. Is Canada prepared to use force? Should that be necessary? Could Alberta work in the background to create at least some kind of tacit support from the US for secession (as if the Americans did a good job with it, ha).

[ZenOps]

It is technically true though, Alberta leaving Canada would not in any way shape or form be like California leaving the USA.

Alberta technically cannot become sovereign by simply "leaving" Canada. Canada simply does not have that power of authority over its landmass. You technically have to ask Queen Elizabeth II and not a four year term Prime Minister. Prime minister is separate but roughly equivalent to a Governor General in terms of power, both subordinate to the Crown as a legal jurisdiction.

Its like how Trump can "want" a pipeline, but ultimately its up to the supreme courts in the USA to decide whether or not its legal to proceed with it.

The only way I can see Alberta leaving, is if they re-join Britain as a vassal state. Joining the USA is not an option unless Royal Assent is given, as Queen Elizabeth II owns Alberta, not you plebs. And the likelihood of the Crown giving land to the USA over the Crown giving land to the citizens actually living here and who have pledged allegiance - is near zero (or at least I'd hope to think so) In that scenario, I can imagine taxation might be closer to Paris type taxation - or up to 75% - so be careful what you wish for when you say "Seperatism".

And when I say "Britain" I mean it, the notion of the "UK" United died the day they voted on Brexit. USA has rights over its own landmass because they killed a hell of a lot of British people to do it, it is literally one of the most celebrated wars in the USA (personally I think its because of their massive recent failures in both Vietnam and Korea, but hey - whatever)

Now, if Alberta bought two nukes and pointed them at New York and LA... That would be a way to gain some sovereignty - the Chenghis Khan way.

[ZenOps]

BTW: I'm a petty petty man. As long as Rob Anders doesn't get any of Alberta, I'm pretty much ok with not getting any of Alberta. Let the beavers have it all.

[J-hop]

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You realize the entire point of secession is the rejection of Ottawa's authority. Honestly people, let's at least pretend that we're trying here.

I’m trying to think, has that ever happened in a western country?

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Personally, I don't feel that being a bunch of rude cunts that look down upon anyone that doesn't speak a language that causes vaginas to slam shut like bear traps, is much of a "Culture", so much as it is just an attitude. And if having a shitty attitude constitutes reasonable grounds to talk about separation, Alberta should qualify, as a good portion of citizens here are becoming more and more jaded by the sub par treatment from our federal government.

I’m guessing you’ve never been there? (passing through Montreal airport doesn’t count)

[kertejud2]

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I'm only interested in the Federal government negotiating.

That's nice. Doesn't matter what you're interested in. You should know who you're negotiating against.

I think it would make sense for Ottawa to perceive a popular desire to leave and participate in an orderly departure, rather than behaving like a petulant child and forcing the process to be acrimonious. That would benefit no one. Besides, if someone wants to break up with you, trying to force them to stay seems pointless.

It's more like a divorce, and you want to keep what was yours before you 'got married.'

Alberta could leave as quickly and orderly as it wants if it can present a deal the majority of provinces, the federal government, and the First Nations would agree to that is in their best interests. So the ball would be in your court, I guess.