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    Default Alberta Separatism is starting to go mainstream

    It's about time. I've been making practical arguments for Alberta separation for some time. (As opposed to the religious or wing-nut arguments from decades past). I think the idea is starting to go mainstream and will gain momentum rapidly.

    https://business.financialpost.com/o...#comments-area

    Lawrence Solomon: If Alberta turns separatist, the Rest of Canada is in big trouble
    Holding all the power now, Albertans would get richer while the balance of the country would get poorer

    Fully 62 per cent of Albertans believe the province “does not get its fair share from Confederation” (up from 45 per cent two decades ago).Ed Kaiser

    Canadians don’t value our fossil fuel economy, which explains why so many are OK to trash pipelines and see Alberta tank. Only 19 per cent think it more important to pursue oil and gas development than to go green and regulate oil, according to EKOS polling. That 19 per cent figure shrinks to eight per cent for Canadians who consider themselves Liberals, six per cent for NDPers and two per cent for those who vote Green, meaning that politicians of most stripes have no interest in alienating their supporters to help Alberta’s energy economy recover.

    Those figures also explain why Alberta’s sense of alienation is on the rise. According to Ipsos, fully 62 per cent believe Alberta “does not get its fair share from Confederation” (up from 45 per cent two decades ago), 46 per cent feel more attached to their province than to their country (up from 39 per cent) and 34 per cent “feel less committed to Canada than I did a few years ago” (up from 22 per cent). Just 18 per cent of Albertans believe “the views of western Canadians are adequately represented in Ottawa.”

    ‘I’m afraid for Canada’: Energy CEOs losing patience with country’s indifference to oilpatch’s plight
    Canada’s Catalonia? Careful Ottawa, western alienation is beginning to rear its head again
    ‘Heavy-handed’ intervention will not alleviate Alberta’s pain in long term
    One-quarter of Albertans now believe Alberta “would be better off if it separated from Canada,” a number that may well rise if the provincial economy founders, and would certainly rise if Albertans realized that they need Canada a lot less than Canada needs them. Without Alberta’s wealth and foreign-exchange earnings, the living standard of Canadians outside Alberta would drop and the Canadian dollar would plummet, likely leading to inflation as the cost of imports rose. Albertans, in contrast, would see their affluence rise and, because oil sales are denominated in U.S. dollars, Alberta would be largely insulated from the inflation to its east and west.

    Those pooh-poohing independence claim Alberta, being land-locked, would be held hostage if it were an independent state. Those scoffers have it backwards. Alberta is today held hostage, its pipelines east and west kiboshed by its fellow Canadians. If Alberta were independent, its newfound bargaining power would certainly cause the Rest of Canada to capitulate, and speed to completion any and all pipelines Alberta needed to either ocean.

    An independent Alberta would control access to its land mass as well as the skies above it, requiring Canada’s federal government to negotiate rights for, say, Vancouver-to-Toronto flights over Alberta airspace. Canada would also need Alberta’s agreement to have trains and trucks cross its now-international borders. Threats of tolls and tariffs could abound as needed to chasten those perceived to be wronging Alberta, whether Quebec, which exports dairy to B.C., grain interests that now commandeer rail to the detriment of Alberta’s oil shippers, or the B.C. ports that depend on commodities going to and from points east. Anyone thinking that Alberta would be unable to police its borders needs to be reminded that, for the past 70 years, Alberta’s patrols have made it the continent’s only rat-free jurisdiction.

    Should Alberta become a credible threat to leave the federation, the debate would embolden Quebec separatists, make Canada seem unstable and scare off investment


    The Rest of Canada has other reasons to avoid pushing Albertans to the point of separation. Should Alberta become a credible threat to leave the Canadian federation, the debate would likely embolden Quebec separatists, make Canada seem unstable and scare off both domestic and international investment. Alberta would have the United States as a bargaining chip, too: Manifest Destiny, the U.S. dream of controlling the entire continent, would experience a revival at the prospect of welcoming Alberta as its 51st state, strengthening America’s influence over the world’s energy markets and, in particular, over a now energy-dependent Rest of Canada.

    While history suggests Alberta would almost surely be better off outside Canada — Singapore, Norway, Taiwan, the Czech Republic and other breakaways have generally thrived — divorce would be messy, costly in the short term and unnecessary. The Supreme Court of Canada made separation plausible — separation negotiations would start as soon as a clear majority of Albertans in a clearly stated referendum voted to leave Canada. It wouldn’t take too many more blows to Alberta’s economy and Albertans’ pride for the 46 per cent who now see themselves more as Albertans than Canadians to become 56 per cent or even 66 per cent, figures setting Canada on a path to dismemberment.

    The last time Alberta was pushed toward the brink, it argued that “the West wants in.” The next time it might argue that “Alberta wants out.” The Rest of Canada needs to understand it has no hand to play if it continues to fuel Albertans’ discontent. If we don’t come to have regard for the needs of Alberta, Alberta will come to have no regard for Canada.

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    Alberta separation is not my preference, but then again, neither is the current dysfunctional situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    Alberta separation is not my preference, but then again, neither is the current dysfunctional situation.
    I used to feel the same way. Now I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

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    If Quebec can't separate, Alberta doesn't stand a chance, for many reasons.

    That's not to say I wouldn't vote if the opportunity came up. But we have to consider everything that goes along with building a country - even if we have some pseudo-EU type agreement.
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    If there is not at least a minority government come 2020, I'm all-in on separation. We cannot accept 8-10 year negative cycles and do what is right for Alberta.

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    Do we get to put king Ralph's face on the new currency

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    An independent Alberta would control access to its land mass as well as the skies above it, requiring Canada’s federal government to negotiate rights for, say, Vancouver-to-Toronto flights over Alberta airspace. Canada would also need Alberta’s agreement to have trains and trucks cross its now-international borders. Threats of tolls and tariffs could abound as needed to chasten those perceived to be wronging Alberta, whether Quebec, which exports dairy to B.C., grain interests that now commandeer rail to the detriment of Alberta’s oil shippers, or the B.C. ports that depend on commodities going to and from points east. Anyone thinking that Alberta would be unable to police its borders needs to be reminded that, for the past 70 years, Alberta’s patrols have made it the continent’s only rat-free jurisdiction.
    Well good thing Alberta doesn't need to negotiate for rights from Alberta to pretty much everywhere else in the world, or access to rail systems and ports and road systems for goods coming in and exports going out.

    Alberta would have the United States as a bargaining chip, too: Manifest Destiny, the U.S. dream of controlling the entire continent, would experience a revival at the prospect of welcoming Alberta as its 51st state, strengthening America’s influence over the world’s energy markets and, in particular, over a now energy-dependent Rest of Canada.
    Oh, and forget about using all those bargaining chips I mentioned before because Alberta can just throw them out the window by joining a country that has pretty favorable deals for exactly those things already.

    Good to see ol' Lawrence still has it.

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    Only if we can have California too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    Alberta separation is not my preference, but then again, neither is the current dysfunctional situation.
    Agreed

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    I would rather see WESTERN separation than just AB. Its clear that West of MB, the feds (esp. liberals) care very little.

    A nation with a million people is not exactly going to be cheap to setup the entire federal framework in place in Ottawa - but not to say we couldnt do better. We could have our own criminal code, gun laws, etc. Crack heads get sent to a remote part of the province to deal with their shit for eg. Border patrol would be less of an issue for us with BC and SK watching their borders.

    Unlike QC, we would likely have a net financial BENEFIT from separation here, vs them where they would have had to swallow huge debt and changes to their social systems.
    Last edited by revelations; 12-07-2018 at 11:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    Now I think the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
    I don't think there has ever been advantages, I just think it was one of those "eh, its not that bad" situations.

    Who said "if Quebec can't separate"? Quebec very, VERY nearly did separate. And they might try again, only reason they haven't is they have it so good with the Liberal cronies lining their pockets.

    I've always been for Alberta separation. As stated in the article, we have the power, and one thing a lot of people forget is we have a trump card in land access to the USA, who will gladly take anything we want to sell them.

    Just in lost revenue due to transfer payments to other provinces, Alberta's standard of living would sky rocket. There would be short term pain, like they are finding out with Brexit, but isn't that what we've been dealing with since 2014 already?

    Edit-
    I am very against becoming part of the USA though. We could cherry pick the best of USA constitution and Canadian constitution and make a viable country to live in.

    And I would pay anything to be the one to light on fire a copy of the bullshit Charter of Rights and Freedoms when the declaration of the country of Alberta was signed.
    Last edited by HiTempguy1; 12-07-2018 at 12:19 PM.

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    I think it would likely be Alberta and Sask, and less likely to be Manitoba. I would have included BC in that mix previously, but now I don't think it would be a good idea. BC is a mess. AlSask would be smart to leave the option open for sections of BC to move over if they were interested, but I don't think that's practical. (Most of the interior and large junks of the NE of BC would much rather not be part of the province.)

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    Outside of the costs and such. The Aboriginal land rights would be a mess, especially for development. Also, what about mineral rights for current or future O&G development. Would the separated entity be required to purchase those rights from the Government of Canada? Without those mineral rights.....our sources of funding would be a little handcuffed

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r3124 View Post
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    Outside of the costs and such. The Aboriginal land rights would be a mess, especially for development. Also, what about mineral rights for current or future O&G development. Would the separated entity be required to purchase those rights from the Government of Canada? Without those mineral rights.....our sources of funding would be a little handcuffed
    The federal government does not own mineral rights. (Can you imagine what Alberta would look like if they did? There would be pipelines everywhere, and Alberta would be nothing more than work camps.)

    If Alberta separates, I would think that Aboriginal land "rights", or how those are structured might be one of the first orders of legislation. It should be fixed at the federal level already, but there is little political appetite for doing the right there there. The concept of assigning land rights (or any rights) based on race is immoral.

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    [QUOTE=Buster;4766487]The federal government does not own mineral rights. (Can you imagine what Alberta would look like if they did? There would be pipelines everywhere, and Alberta would be nothing more than work camps.)

    Aren't most mineral rights own by the crown? with a smaller proportion owned by private companies? or is it the other way around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8r3124 View Post
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    Aren't most mineral rights own by the crown? with a smaller proportion owned by private companies? or is it the other way around?
    Owned by the Crown but given provincial responsibility (provinces have a Crown represenatative in the Lieutenant Governor).

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    "Crown" can refer to federal or provincial.

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    All for it. I'd love to stop giving all my taxes to the easterners.

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    One of the problems we have in Alberta is we don't have the intellectual horsepower at the provincial governmental level to negotiate anything. We have plenty of brain power in the private sector (although most are just technocrat types). But our provincial level and municipal level politics are dominated by people who are average in terms of intelligence and effectiveness on all sides of the spectrum. If someone tells me they work in government in Alberta, I assume it's because they don't have the competency to do something else.

    Then again, the federal government threw Chrystia Freeland out there to cry her way through the EU negotiations...so there's that.

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    In Buster We Trust
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    In Beyond We Trust

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