Proposed new/expanded Alberta parks - Bighorn Country

[Brent.ff]

they have provided almost 3 months of consultation time online... how much time do you want to get heard?

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How many open houses have you facilitated or attended?

Whatever the case is, the minister lied or misled about ongoing RCMP investigations, and the RCMP came out said that’s not going on. Whatever the case is, it doesn’t smell right. She was attempting to create a false narrative and got caught in doing it.

I’ve been part of a couple contentious ones.

And I agree that she screwed up big time about the RCMP, and probably should have done some fact checking before mentioning it on such a huge fact. I do believe there was bullying, all you have to do is look at the comments online to see it.

[gwill]

Are you suggesting a few questions online is good enough of a consult when turning over a massive area of alberta into a park??? There are serious repercussions to businesses, industry, trappers as well as those who live in the immediate areas. Many first nations weren't consulted either but lets not open that box up.

Nothing like a simple online questionnaire to gather feedback for such a large decision.

If the ndp are going to pretend like their consulting the general public they should at least put a bit of effort into it.

[Brent.ff]

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Are you suggesting a few questions online is good enough of a consult when turning over a massive area of alberta into a park??? There are serious repercussions to businesses, industry, trappers as well as those who live in the immediate areas. Many first nations weren't consulted either but lets not open that box up.

Nothing like a simple online questionnaire to gather feedback for such a large decision.

If the ndp are going to pretend like their consulting the general public they should at least put a bit of effort into it.

I know you're just kind of regurgitating the CAPLA talking points (and with what you're saying im pretty convinced you haven't read the actual plan or even the summary documents), but you know that the PCs were working on the NSRP and the Bighorn Country stuff for over 20 years, and it has taken the NDP to actually get moving on it. I'm positive that had this been a PC move, you wouldn't have heard boo, because its typical that anything done by the NDP is the devil.

First off, a massive area of Alberta into a park? Hardly, there is a tiny portion being developed as provincial parks, a larger portion developed as a wildland park (these are alpine areas, they're not affecting any industry, and all existing is being grandfathered in), and the vast majority being developed into a Public Land Use Zone, where there would be no impact to industry/trappers/business or the like.

Here's the summary for the PLUZ, tell me how it impacts industry:

[ExtraSlow]

There's a lot of industrial and motorized recreational uses happening in the Kananaskis PLUZ.

I admit to being less informed on this topic, but I honestly don't understand the big deal.

Yes the consultations were fucked up, but honestly, is proper public consultation for any project even possible anymore? I can't think of a single example in the last couple of years where people thought the consultations were done "right". Springbank dam? Coastal Gaslink Pipeline? Trans Mountain Pipeline? Keystone XL Pipeline?

[Brent.ff]

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I admit to being less informed on this topic, but I honestly don't understand the big deal.

Rednecks gotta redneck, and are worried that they are finally going to be held to the Public Lands Administration Regulation when they've had a free-for-all under the PCs with no enforcement.

People should be embarrassed how the Public Lands are treated by a small number of people in the province, when it's all of our property at the end of the day. There's a reason that no one is allowing OHV use on private land for mudbogging as it trashes the land and ruins the value. Why should Albertans expect any different on the land that is owned by all of us?

Yes the consultations were fucked up, but honestly, is proper public consultation for any project even possible anymore? I can't think of a single example in the last couple of years where people thought the consultations were done "right". Springbank dam? Coastal Gaslink Pipeline? Trans Mountain Pipeline? Keystone XL Pipeline?

That's why I find this hilarious. When its in your backyard it's not adequate consultation. Yet then show up at the rallys screaming 'build that pipe, build that pipe'.. I'm not sure you get to play both sides..


Here's a pretty good summary:

https://thenarwhal.ca/it-cant-be-a-f...ghorn-country/

[gwill]

If you think the PLUZ wont affect any industry, business or residents then why do we need the park at all? Ill help you with this answer
Once the park is created the govt will chip away by adding more restrictions.

You only need to look at the castle park to see how their promises were quickly.

Many of those living local dont want the area commercialized. They don't want another jasper or banff. They want it left the way it is.

[Brent.ff]

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If you think the PLUZ wont affect any industry, business or residents then why do we need the park at all? Ill help you with this answer
Once the park is created the govt will chip away by adding more restrictions.

You only need to look at the castle park to see how their promises were quickly.

Many of those living local dont want the area commercialized. They don't want another jasper or banff. They want it left the way it is.

Because a free-for-all is not a sustainable solution. There is a PILE of industrial activities in the PLUZ's around the province. They want the PLUZ because it gives more teeth to regulations and allows them to enforce the Public Lands Administration Regulation for things like un-sanctioned OHV trails, etc.

Compare apples to apples here if you want to make comparisons, K-Country is hardly commercialized and is what they're going for. The only really commercial part of K-Country is Nakiska/Delta, which is specifically outside of the Provincial Park. Drive from Longview west, and let me know where the mega malls, ziplines, water slides etc are... Using Banff and Jasper as the example is completely misinformation, hell its not even provincial land. Would you call the Ghost commercialized? Hell, most people can't even get their vehicle down the big-hill, let alone to anything remotely commercial.

[HiTempguy1]

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Because a free-for-all is not a sustainable solution.

It actually is, even though it isn't a free for all.

You just don't like it. Ah, authoritarianism at its finest.

[gwill]

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It actually is, even though it isn't a free for all.

You just don't like it. Ah, authoritarianism at its finest.

Simple enforcement sounds like the solution if Brent's reasoning for supporting the park is to stop the rednecks and ohvs. Imagine that... I've bridged the gap between those who want the park and those who dont.

No one would object to more enforcement. You dont need to create a park for having enforcement.

[bjstare]

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Rednecks gotta redneck, and are worried that they are finally going to be held to the Public Lands Administration Regulation when they've had a free-for-all under the PCs with no enforcement.

People should be embarrassed how the Public Lands are treated by a small number of people in the province, when it's all of our property at the end of the day. There's a reason that no one is allowing OHV use on private land for mudbogging as it trashes the land and ruins the value. Why should Albertans expect any different on the land that is owned by all of us?




That's why I find this hilarious. When its in your backyard it's not adequate consultation. Yet then show up at the rallys screaming 'build that pipe, build that pipe'.. I'm not sure you get to play both sides..


Here's a pretty good summary:

https://thenarwhal.ca/it-cant-be-a-f...ghorn-country/

You're hilarious. What percentage of the land do you think has actually been "trashed" by "mud bogging"? As someone who grew up doing dumb redneck activities like that (not that specifically, we rode dirt bikes and were out there to camp as a family and not party, but I assume you don't care about that distinction), I can say pretty confidently that OHVs have impacted a tiny portion of the land we've had free-for-all access to for decades. Like try and think about how many hectares are out there and accessible, and how much of that area is actually tracks and mudholes? Have you actually been out there, gone to the top of a hill/mountain and looked at thousands of acres of land that's unspoiled, despite the fact you rode your dirt bike across a couple streams and up a goat path of a trail to get there?

[HiTempguy1]

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Have you actually been out there, gone to the top of a hill/mountain and looked at thousands of acres of land that's unspoiled, despite the fact you rode your dirt bike across a couple streams and up a goat path of a trail to get there?

I'm curious as to how Brent feels about using the roads to get into the parks? Highways are habitat destroyers, wreck migration paths for animals, and cause untold ecological damage to a species natural environment.

He must walk from downtown Calgary to get there. I wish I was as dedicated to my ideals as he is, a paragon of virtue we should all try to emulate.

[Brent.ff]

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What percentage of the land do you think has actually been "trashed" by "mud bogging"? As someone who grew up doing dumb redneck activities like that (not that specifically, we rode dirt bikes and were out there to camp as a family and not party, but I assume you don't care about that distinction), I can say pretty confidently that OHVs have impacted a tiny portion of the land we've had free-for-all access to for decades.

I actually have compassion for those that aren't out there trashing stuff and use it respectfully that are getting lumped in with the ones that are the bad apples, but literal decades of those bad apples impacting watercourses and wetlands was eventually going to catch up to the entire community. Hell there is a lot of good work by some of the organizations, like the Quad Squad putting in bridges, and yet still there are people refusing to use them.. The biggest issue, is that while the amount of land (in hectares) may be tiny, the impact is of substantially higher impact then without OHVs on the landscape: http://www.ghostwatershed.ca/GWAS/ew...tWaiparous.pdf ; https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/e77c...ewv58final.pdf.

I think the government could do a lot by actually finding areas that could be designated as OHV Parks (appropriate substrates to avoid sedimentation, bridges in place, etc), rather then just close areas without an alternative. There is a lot of opportunity with the way the bighorn proposal has come out to shape where designated trails are, and I fully think that the UCP will keep the park, but bend a bit on making the trail system work..

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I'm curious as to how Brent feels about using the roads to get into the parks? Highways are habitat destroyers, wreck migration paths for animals, and cause untold ecological damage to a species natural environment.

He must walk from downtown Calgary to get there. I wish I was as dedicated to my ideals as he is, a paragon of virtue we should all try to emulate.

I typically walk from DT Calgary hand-in-hand with my best friend Portia, and emote our love for the CBC and Trudeau the whole way....There's a distinct difference between engineered roads that actually do spend a bit of time looking at environmental impacts (there would be a lot of unemployed biologists otherwise), then defacto trails that are developed arbitrarily in the backcountry by buddy on a side-by-side, with no thought of the ability for that area to actually take the impact.

[HiTempguy1]

[QUOTE=Brent.ff;4776719]the impact is of substantially higher impact then without OHVs on the landscape

As mentioned before, literally anything is higher impact than human feet walking on the ground. When the % of impact is calculated with a "0" for impact in the denominator, "anything" is "infinitely" higher. I know that might be hard for you to grasp, what with all those CBC talking points lodged in your ears, but try and understand.

I typically walk from DT Calgary hand-in-hand with my best friend Portia, and emote our love for the CBC and Trudeau the whole way....

I mean, you are trying to make a joke, but the reality is you probably do listen to CBC radio on the way out there, agreeing with anything that glorifies Trudeau and his sunny ways, all while being smugly hypocritical driving your gas guzzler tacoma to go "enjoy nature" If Portia came on the radio, it would just be icing on the cake really.

[gwill]

some first nations holding a rally today due to the govt not consulting them at all on the big horn park proposal.

[Brent.ff]

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some first nations holding a rally today due to the govt not consulting them at all on the big horn park proposal.

Do you support that they should have been consulted?

[blownz]

I love how they rally against development and against limiting development. They really seem to have nothing better to do than complain. lol

What bugs me about this is that I don't see this ever ending or changing no matter how much reconciliation, consulting, or money is involved.

[gwill]

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I love how they rally against development and against limiting development. They really seem to have nothing better to do than complain. lol

What bugs me about this is that I don't see this ever ending or changing no matter how much reconciliation, consulting, or money is involved.

I agree but in the case of this park the consultations have been a main issue for most. This includes towns, counties, residents and now you can add the different bands directly in the proposed park area.

[16hypen3sp]

IIRC, the Cons talked about turning Bighorn into what the NDP are proposing, but there was one big exception... the Howse Pass highway was included. This was the compromise with the environmentalists. The development of Bighorn included a new highway.

Anyway, lots of upset people about it. Lots of support too tho. I've utilized the area quite a bit, not sure how I feel about it.

[stealth]

I camp and quad in Big Horn. I don't know what the problem is. Leave it as is. To have a place that is "free-for-all" is nice, because there isn't much of them left around. Why should I be told where to ride in this huge ass country with tons of land. If hippies want to hike, they can go to Banff or Jasper.

If anything the OHV users are some of the most respectful out there. Anything we pack in, we pack out. No garbage is left around. The trails aren't torn up.

[Nufy]

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If anything the OHV users are some of the most respectful out there. Anything we pack in, we pack out. No garbage is left around. The trails aren't torn up.

I agree, but the one douche bag who doesn't on a long weekend is labelled for the whole community and used as a poster child for why the whole thing should be shut down...