Plane Engines and the 737 MAX 8 Accidents

[ExtraSlow]

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In the end though, it's still a dynamically unstable airframe, is it not? I know I personally don't ever want to get on a MAX because it's a fatally flawed design.

I'm not an airplane guy, so I have no idea, but is this particularly unique to this aircraft? Do other commercial aircraft share this attribute?

[Xtrema]

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I'm not an airplane guy, so I have no idea, but is this particularly unique to this aircraft? Do other commercial aircraft share this attribute?

To recap, they redesigned it for fuel saving that caused an issue that requires MCAS. Then put in an MCAS with a single sensor, so it has SPOF.

Add insult to injury, Boeing request to remove MCAS from manual so 737 Max doesn't require 737 pilots to be retrained, keeping a promise of low operating cost.

I assume if MCAS is overhauled with multiple sensors and pilots are trained on it, it should be ok. But key confidence question is, what else does Boeing misjudged on this design if this problem was supposed to happen to only 1 in 10 million flights?

[Mitsu3000gt]

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In the end though, it's still a dynamically unstable airframe, is it not? I know I personally don't ever want to get on a MAX because it's a fatally flawed design.

The current tried & true 737NG has the same "unstable" (it's not really unstable) air frame where the engines overpower it causing a pitch upwards when power is applied, just not to quite the same degree as the MAX. It's actually quite common. The difference is in the current 737NG pilots can more easily manage the effect.

Honestly the MAX is likely going to be the safest plane in the sky once it comes back into service since Boeing cannot afford another incident after the fix (well, they probably actually can, but you get the point). Also, you can bet Airbus has gone over all their planes with a fine-tooth comb to make sure theirs are not susceptible to anything similar. Anytime there is an accident, as horrible as it is, it usually makes overall air travel safer for everyone. I wouldn't have any issue flying on one personally.

[sabad66]

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me either. Once this gets fixed, with all the attention this plane is getting and with how many engineers are going to be going through this with a fine tooth comb...Boeing will throw every dollar at it to appease everyone, this plane will probably be the safest plant in the skies, ever.

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I should also clarify that I will not hesitate to fly on these plane, probably even without a discount.

y'all are braver than me. I know i personally will not take me or my family on these planes for at least 6 months after they come back online. I know it's irrational based on the statistics and how much review will be happening but whatever.

[Team_Mclaren]

It's funny to re-read the posts from the beginning of the year. almost 10 months later, its still grounded.

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y'all are braver than me. I know i personally will not take me or my family on these planes for at least 6 months after they come back online. I know it's irrational based on the statistics and how much review will be happening but whatever.

Once it's up and running again, it'll for sure be the safest model to fly on. I'd have no problem flying on it either. If another one crashed shortly after, that might be the end of Boeing.

[revelations]

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It's funny to re-read the posts from the beginning of the year. almost 10 months later, its still grounded.




Once it's up and running again, it'll for sure be the safest model to fly on. I'd have no problem flying on it either. If another one crashed shortly after, that might be the end of Boeing.

Even if it was pure pilot error (which happens a lot in 2nd world countries) everyone would again immediately ground it until the investigation is complete.

A very risky move by air carriers to jump right back in to this.

[spikerS]

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Even if it was pure pilot error (which happens a lot in 2nd world countries) everyone would again immediately ground it until the investigation is complete.

A very risky move by air carriers to jump right back in to this.

I don't think they have a choice in the matter. They have so much tied up in these planes, they can't afford to have them sitting around unused, and the routes they are going to fly are specifically chosen for these planes to reduce costs. The longer they are out of service, the more money they are losing, not to mention they probably can't sell them either as they are probably pretty leveraged. Make no mistake, the airlines want these back in service yesterday.

[revelations]

Several carriers have already cancelled their 737M orders, with penalties, and switched to Airbus.

Boeings stock will rise once these ships start to fly again, but if there is a crash for any reason 12-24 months after taking to the skies, the stock will plummet worse then ever.

[95EagleAWD]

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Several carriers have already cancelled their 737M orders, with penalties, and switched to Airbus.

Boeings stock will rise once these ships start to fly again, but if there is a crash for any reason 12-24 months after taking to the skies, the stock will plummet worse then ever.

Have they? I’ve heard it’s years to get a NEO off the production line.

Saying that, I’m actually really surprised AC didn’t dump them and buy A320/321 NEOs.

[ExtraSlow]

Probably the cancelled orders were years out as well. I gotta Say those A320's are nice birds.

[benyl]

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I don't think they have a choice in the matter. They have so much tied up in these planes, they can't afford to have them sitting around unused, and the routes they are going to fly are specifically chosen for these planes to reduce costs. The longer they are out of service, the more money they are losing, not to mention they probably can't sell them either as they are probably pretty leveraged. Make no mistake, the airlines want these back in service yesterday.

WestJet just had a huge quarterly profit without the MAX. I am not sure how you can say that all airlines are losing money due to the grounding.

Passengers should be wanting these planes back in the air. For one, direct flights from Calgary to Hawaii or from Eastern Canada to Europe relied on the max due to longer range as a result of the 15% better fuel usage. Secondly, the extra capacity in the networks allow for lower prices for passengers. Right now, airlines don’t have to discount to fill planes because of the grounding.

Lastly, you can be sure the airlines are going to demand compensation from Boeing for lost revenue and at the very least for ownership costs during the time the planes have been grounded.

[spikerS]

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WestJet just had a huge quarterly profit without the MAX. I am not sure how you can say that all airlines are losing money due to the grounding.

1) Maintenance - still going to happen
2) Storage - That parked jet is still going to have hanger fees or tarmac fees
3) Interest rate - they still gotta pay the interest rate and payments to their lenders, doesn't matter if it is in the air or not
4) Insurance - still gotta have it
5) Savings versus other planes on the routes these planes were supposed to run in both fuel and maintenance
6) passenger load - not in all instances, but in most iirc, the passenger load is higher in the MAX8 versus the current planes on the routes the MAX8 was supposed to be flying
7) Dolla Bills Yo! - The money currently tied up in these planes could have been spent on other planes instead that could be in the air now. Instead that capital is tied up in the grounded MAX8s.

All of these costs are incurred because of the MAX8 grounding and the planes are not generating revenue. as in $0.00 since the grounding and have only cost the companies money.

Sure, WJ may have posted profits. I never even insinuated they wouldn't. That wasn't my point. My point is that they are losing a substantial amount because of this situation and not being able to use them. Will they get some compensation? Probably. Might just be discounts on future orders, we can't say for sure what it will be. My point is, that the airlines are forking out money for these planes right now, and not getting any returns on them. And then, once the MAX8s are returned to service, the planes currently running the MAX8 routes are going to need major maintenance because the fleet is having to be juggled that much more to cover the gaps.

[Maxx Mazda]

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Have they? I’ve heard it’s years to get a NEO off the production line.

Saying that, I’m actually really surprised AC didn’t dump them and buy A320/321 NEOs.

AC was gonna go with the NEOs, then there was some shady back door shit by Boeing on the weekend before the fleet announcement and all of a sudden Monday morning they announce they’re ordering the MAX, leaving airbus standing there with their dick in their hands. Hint: it had a lot to do with Boeing promising to buy the E190’s back as the MAX’s came online.

[95EagleAWD]

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AC was gonna go with the NEOs, then there was some shady back door shit by Boeing on the weekend before the fleet announcement and all of a sudden Monday morning they announce they’re ordering the MAX, leaving airbus standing there with their dick in their hands. Hint: it had a lot to do with Boeing promising to buy the E190’s back as the MAX’s came online.

That blows me away because I thought the mainline E190s were being replaced by the A220s. The MAX and E190 don’t really compare.

Also, from who I’ve talked to at AC, NOBODY likes the MAX. The pilots don’t, the FAs fucking HATE it... and I don’t blame them. The 737 is fucking old.

[01RedDX]

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[Tik-Tok]

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1) Maintenance - still going to happen
.

Unfortunately this is also part of what's going to suck when the MAX's come back online. Airplanes don't like to sit for a week, let alone a year. They break when they sit. They are going to have so many problems when back flying, it won't even be funny. Expect a lot of maintenance delays if you're on max route for the first month or so.

[Maxx Mazda]

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That blows me away because I thought the mainline E190s were being replaced by the A220s. The MAX and E190 don’t really compare.

Also, from who I’ve talked to at AC, NOBODY likes the MAX. The pilots don’t, the FAs fucking HATE it... and I don’t blame them. The 737 is fucking old.

Yeah it’s a bit of a sore subject around the water cooler. I don’t know anyone who likes the machine. I think Boeing was able to persuade the execs by basically giving them the planes for nothing, rolled into their 787 order. The NEO blows the MAX out of the water in every metric, as far as CASM, fuel efficiency, everything except for initial cost of acquisition per airframe. So if Boeing was able to make a case for that, it makes sense why AC went that direction. Calin isn’t dumb, he’s a shrewd negotiatior and great at making money.

AC’s 737’s were factory equipped with dual heads up displays which meant they all had the redundant AOA vanes installed as part of that option. The software update still needs to be applied, but from what I’ve heard no hardware changes need to be made to the airframes.

[Maxx Mazda]

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Unfortunately this is also part of what's going to suck when the MAX's come back online. Airplanes don't like to sit for a week, let alone a year. They break when they sit. They are going to have so many problems when back flying, it won't even be funny. Expect a lot of maintenance delays if you're on max route for the first month or so.

There’s some truth to this, however they’ve flown most of them down to the desert (Victorville I think) for long term storage, which means the company there runs them every couple of weeks, moves them so the tires don’t flat spot, puts power on and cycles the hydraulics, etc. So this should hopefully minimize any mechanical delays in return to service.

[revelations]

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Unfortunately this is also part of what's going to suck when the MAX's come back online. Airplanes don't like to sit for a week, let alone a year. They break when they sit. They are going to have so many problems when back flying, it won't even be funny. Expect a lot of maintenance delays if you're on max route for the first month or so.

Yea for sure - fortunately, I heard that AC ferried most of their 737Ms to the desert - so there should be little to do in terms of prep - at least compared to the new ones parked in Washington State right now in the rain ..... hoooo boy.


(EDIT - haha too slow)

[95EagleAWD]

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Unfortunately this is also part of what's going to suck when the MAX's come back online. Airplanes don't like to sit for a week, let alone a year. They break when they sit. They are going to have so many problems when back flying, it won't even be funny. Expect a lot of maintenance delays if you're on max route for the first month or so.

Haha funny you say that. The maintenance on our caravans for all the systems we don’t use in the summer is stacking up lol.