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Thread: Split: Plane Engines and the 737 MAX 8 Accidents

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreezee View Post
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    Officially grounded in Canada!
    I saw that too - this will probably be the fastest Boeing has ever investigated anything haha. The USA is kind of alone now, but at the same time with zero evidence this had anything to do with the plane itself, it's somewhat understandable. But with stuff like this, extreme caution seems like the best way to go.
    Last edited by Mitsu3000gt; 03-13-2019 at 10:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phreezee View Post
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    Officially grounded in Canada!
    Let mass hysteria fuelled by the internet rein!!!
    "if you disagree with my views are cannot adequately my criticism then ignore my posts." - Nusc

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    Random rumour on another discussion group (not pprune) - however as far as I can tell, it sounds technically possible and something that an OEM would do in terms of mitigation - ie. keep bad news like this internal and discuss with operators direct.

    Usually rumours that are this technical and specific tend to reflect, at least part reality

    Reportedly a memo was circulated internally at Boeing as early as AUG 2018 of potential failure modes tied to MCAS-AOA programming logic. In certain circumstances wind flutter interaction with the AOA probes could cause intermittent compliance flags to the MCAS system causing nose down overtrim.

    Due to the transient nature of the signals the stall redundancy routine would not be triggered (transient signals of under 10-15ms), which would otherwise cross reference other flight parameters for validation, so a single point of failure became possible through the AOA probe, leading to progressive nose down trimming with no associated stall or comparator warnings.

    Only when the nose down trim reaches the stops does the stick shaker and associated stall cacophony come on, causing utter confusion as airspeed is progressively increasing, pitch falling, STAB TRIM is fully nose down, and any nose up elevator input seemingly produces no effect due to the massive stabilizer force.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex350 View Post
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    Let mass hysteria fuelled by the internet rein!!!
    I think nobody cares when Air Lion went down. But 2nd one in 5 months, can't blame that someone will notice. And you can't blame maintenance on these.

    Yes, statistically it's still very safe with only 2/250,000 trips went down. But in this industry, it's 2 too many.

    Quote Originally Posted by phreezee View Post
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    Officially grounded in Canada!
    Westjet: down 1.76%
    Air Canada: pretty much no change.
    Last edited by Xtrema; 03-13-2019 at 11:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    I think nobody cares when Air Lion went down. But 2nd one in 5 months, can't blame that someone will notice. And you can't blame maintenance on these.

    Yes, statistically it's still very safe with only 2/250,000 trips went down. But in this industry, it's 2 too many.



    Westjet: down 1.76%
    Air Canada: pretty much no change.
    What if 2 random 737-800's went down within 5 months of each other, one reason known, the other completely unknown and still under investigation - would all those planes be grounded? Probably not. I get why they're doing it but it seems like a bit of a knee-jerk.

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    Air Canada seems to have a lot of them in their fleet, but I'm not sure how many planes amount to 12000 customers/day.
    "We are working to rebook impacted customers as soon as possible, but given the magnitude of our 737 MAX operations, which on average carry nine to twelve thousand customers per day, customers can expect delays in rebooking and in reaching Air Canada call centres."


    Westjet less impacted, I thought they had more.
    "We respect the decision made by Transport Canada and are in the process of grounding the 13 MAX aircraft in our fleet," said the company in an email.

    Edit:

    24: https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Air%20Canada.htm

    13: https://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/...20Airlines.htm
    Last edited by phreezee; 03-13-2019 at 11:32 AM. Reason: Found the fleet info

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreezee View Post
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    Air Canada seems to have a lot of them in their fleet, but I'm not sure how many planes amount to 12000 customers/day.
    "We are working to rebook impacted customers as soon as possible, but given the magnitude of our 737 MAX operations, which on average carry nine to twelve thousand customers per day, customers can expect delays in rebooking and in reaching Air Canada call centres."


    Westjet less impacted, I thought they had more.
    "We respect the decision made by Transport Canada and are in the process of grounding the 13 MAX aircraft in our fleet," said the company in an email.
    Air Canada has 24.
    ---

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    ^ exactly.

    24 x 200pax per flight (rough estimate) = 4,800 pax affected if all MAX8 fly once a day ... .however since most fly more than that - 10,000+ is definitely feasible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Fuckers are up at the open. Not sure 378 is a sweet enough deal for me.
    Just need the FAA to do its thing. There's so much social media criticism of FAA right now it's bound to happen. Should be a decent gamble at that point.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelations View Post
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    ^ exactly.

    24 x 200pax per flight (rough estimate) = 4,800 pax affected if all MAX8 fly once a day ... .however since most fly more than that - 10,000+ is definitely feasible.
    Most probably fly 3-5 times a day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    What if 2 random 737-800's went down within 5 months of each other, one reason known, the other completely unknown and still under investigation - would all those planes be grounded? Probably not. I get why they're doing it but it seems like a bit of a knee-jerk.
    The difference is track record. The Max8 is a new plane and now 1% of them have crashed. The 737-800 came out in '97 so there's plenty of proven reliability there.

    The first Max8 commercial flight was May of 2017, thats 2 crashes with major deaths in under 2 years. Absolutely they should ground them all until they figure out whats the problem. It doesn't matter if its a mechanical, software, or a operator error. At the end of the day its happened more frequently than is acceptable. Even if its operator error then that means either there are problems with the training programs / checklists or things are designed insufficiently.

    The 787 was grounded over the battery fire issues, this is just common practice until its sorted out.
    Nolan

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    Disagree...you don't ground them based solely on speculation.
    "if you disagree with my views are cannot adequately my criticism then ignore my posts." - Nusc

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lex350 View Post
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    Disagree...you don't ground them based solely on speculation.
    The Canada grounding press release stated that based on satellite data they received the planes followed similar patterns before the crash. That indicates a common issue
    Nolan

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    Trudeau is loving this. Big distraction away from SNC.
    ---

  15. #115
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    There is also (not mentioned) the number of internal issues and close-calls related to the MAX8 MCAS that are not being reported.

    2 crashes probably means there were 6-8 or so near-similar events in the past 6 months. Lion Air had issues with the flight preceding the crash - that the different crew were able to ID and deal with properly.

    They arent grounding it because of 1 crash + speculation on another.

    EDIT - possible information was also obtained from ACARS (or something similar)
    Last edited by revelations; 03-13-2019 at 03:03 PM.

  16. #116
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    Trump grounds Max 8
    https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/...ash/index.html

    BUY BUY BUY lol

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    the BA stock is incredible to watch. after trump's announcement it dropped like a dead weight from 374 to 363... now within minutes back up to 371. remember ATH 441 march 1st. volume 25 mil so far, average is 5 lol. loving the rollercoaster!

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by pheoxs View Post
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    The difference is track record. The Max8 is a new plane and now 1% of them have crashed. The 737-800 came out in '97 so there's plenty of proven reliability there.

    The first Max8 commercial flight was May of 2017, thats 2 crashes with major deaths in under 2 years. Absolutely they should ground them all until they figure out whats the problem. It doesn't matter if its a mechanical, software, or a operator error. At the end of the day its happened more frequently than is acceptable. Even if its operator error then that means either there are problems with the training programs / checklists or things are designed insufficiently.

    The 787 was grounded over the battery fire issues, this is just common practice until its sorted out.

  19. #119
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    some discussion about flight recordings. Doesn't mean anything to me

    https://www.satcom.guru/2018/11/firs...2LEdkG00qTtYOY
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
    Im the one with a learning disability....

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    https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/med...ency_Order.pdf

    "On March 13, 2019, the investigation of the ET302 crash developed new information from the wreckage concerning the aircraft's configuration just after takeoff that, taken together with the newly refined data from satellite-based tracking of the aircraft's flight path, indicates some similarities between ET302 and JT610....."

    Interesting... didn’t think that would be the case given the stage of flight, perhaps it was in an AP config that led to this condition where unexpected trimming is taking place during AP activation.
    ---------------------------------------------------

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