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Thread: Split: Plane Engines and the 737 MAX 8 Accidents

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    Default Split: Plane Engines and the 737 MAX 8 Accidents

    Has anybody noticed a difference on the placement of the engines on most aircraft? I never really paid attention whenever I got on a plane, does anybody remember the engines being further back, more centered under the wings as opposed to the forward placement that now seems to be the norm?

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    I agree, used to be further back.
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    That would be a terrible design for inlet airflow on any high bypass jet engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
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    Has anybody noticed a difference on the placement of the engines on most aircraft? I never really paid attention whenever I got on a plane, does anybody remember the engines being further back, more centered under the wings as opposed to the forward placement that now seems to be the norm?

    This thread just took a sharp turn from Mandella Effect to Aviation engineering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterman View Post
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    This thread just took a sharp turn from Mandella Effect to Aviation engineering.
    Supposedly a part of the "Mandela" phenomenon. So apparently some people lived in a world with different physics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterman View Post
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    This thread just took a sharp turn from Mandella Effect to Aviation engineering.
    Thread derailments are a classic part of the Mandella effect.
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    Splitting this thread off... Interesting observation by heavyfuel with the 737 MAX 8 in the news. Hoping other pilots can chime in. Been reading up on the 787 MAX 8 design, with the new fuel efficient engines stuffed way up front, fucking up CoG which necessitates a MCAS system to make sure the plane doesn't accidently stall.

    https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...em-mcas-jt610/

    Reading up on some of the pilot forums, initial data as well as historical flight data is showing some consistency between the Lion Air and Ethiopian Airline crashes where failing speed and/or AoA sensors cause the MCAS to kick in incorrectly and nose down the plane. The bad part in all this is that the MCAS isn't mentioned in pilot training which is odd.
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    Does that placement help a bunch with fuel efficiency or something? I would have thought it would be a bitch to cantilever them way out front like that, requiring all sorts of reinforcing , and thus more weight. But I'm not a aeronautical engineer.
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    According to that article, 14% improvement. It's not the ideal placement, it's the only placement that fits for the new larger more fuel efficient engines. My guess is a more purpose fitting engine design specifically for an aircraft would yield even more efficiency, but probably wouldn't be economically viable.
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    I hadn't realized they were such large diameter. I guess if they put em under the wing they'd hit the ground. Makes sense.
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    I took a couple flights on the max 8 at Christmas. Nice plane for sure.

    Nothing else to add. Sounds to me like MCAS will just end up being disabled so Boeing can hang this on the pilots necks when they stall?
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    The 737 has had engines placed there since the intro of the 300/400/500 series in the 80s. The reason for that is because when they switched from the low-bypass JT8 engines to the CFMs, they didn't have enough ground clearance under the wings. So they moved the nacelle ahead of the wing. That's also why the CFM engines aren't round. They're ovoid, because they had to shift the accessories to the side of the engine. The engines only weigh a couple tons each, and a 737-900 can weigh 85 tons at max takeoff weight.



    Now obviously placing engines ahead of the COG and the longitudinal arm of the aircraft like that is going to have effects, but they're manageable. Thrust changes will have corresponding changes in pitch. But a Cessna 172 does that as well. It's nothing new.

    A 737MAX pilot on Reddit mentioned that the new engines are so powerful that for a go-around, they don't even have to pull back on the yoke. Adding in takeoff power rotates the aircraft enough to pitch it to the correct attitude. He also talks about how the 737MAX is pretty much at the end or just beyond the limit of this design. In order to keep it a common type rating with other 737s, for training costs (COUGH SOUTHWEST) there are lots of compromises in the design, and operation of the aircraft. It needs bigger wheels and better brakes, but it has nowhere to put them. Stuff like that.

    When the first 737 rolled out in the 60s, it could carry something like 110 people. These can carry 200. They weight almost twice as much. They have more than twice the range. They are the "oldest" design still being produced, except the 747. Because of this, certain things can't change, like fuselage diameter, landing gear (to a point), wings, etc...

    A clean sheet design from Boeing needs to happen sometime. And probably pretty soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    I hadn't realized they were such large diameter. I guess if they put em under the wing they'd hit the ground. Makes sense.
    Advanced-Engine-Card6.jpg

    Need a lift kit on that bitch.
    They actually did lengthen the gear on the MAX because of the LEAP engines. But it still has to fit in the gear bay, so it's a complicated design.

    And if you think that diameter is impressive, the GE90 is your friend.

    You can fit a 737 fuselage inside a 777 engine.


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    I don't know much about airplanes, I just sleep on em.
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    Regarding the 2 737 Max incidents, given that they were both with garbage airlines, and the first one was clearly the fault of the airline, I don't expect anything different to come to light with this latest one. A bunch of reputable airlines including West Jet and Air Canada have been flying the MAX for a while now with no such problems and I doubt that's a coincidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    I don't know much about airplanes, I just sleep on em.
    Are you a pilot? Because that describes 90% of the pilot's I work with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tik-Tok View Post
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    Are you a pilot? Because that describes 90% of the pilot's I work with.
    Nah, that job is apparently stressful....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    Regarding the 2 737 Max incidents, given that they were both with garbage airlines, and the first one was clearly the fault of the airline, I don't expect anything different to come to light with this latest one. A bunch of reputable airlines including West Jet and Air Canada have been flying the MAX for a while now with no such problems and I doubt that's a coincidence.
    Lion Air, yes, but Ethiopian is absolutely not a garbage airline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    I don't know much about airplanes, I just sleep on em.
    how I envy you. I have never been able to sleep on planes. I am 100% comfortable with being on a plane, I just can't fall asleep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spikerS View Post
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    how I envy you. I have never been able to sleep on planes. I am 100% comfortable with being on a plane, I just can't fall asleep.
    Falling asleep is my superpower. I can fall asleep anywhere very quickly.
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