External Power Amps for home theater

[Asian_defender]

Seems Beyonders like their TVs, figured they would be into their sound as well. Who here run power amps alongside their AV receivers?
I've currently got a Denon X4400H running a 7.2 home theater setup and want to use an external amp to drive the 2 front towers and center.
Seems like we get gouged for brands like Emotiva with our exchange

Recommendations without breaking the bank? Preferably somewhere in the region of 200wpc

[Mitsu3000gt]

I strongly recommend you find out if you can actually tell a difference between the amps in a good receiver and separates - 99% of people cannot because most of the time there is literally no difference. If you can't ace a blind test time after time, save your money. If you're looking to improve sound quality, calibration and room treatments are far more noticeable, especially for HT usage. Most people have too weak of a sub for their room too, so that can be a good place to put money if you have some burning a hole in your pocket, if necessary.

If your speakers require so much power your current receiver cannot drive them, that is a different story, but I am guessing they can just fine at ~125wpc from that Denon.

Also if your primary usage is HT/Movies/TV rather than critical music listening, the sub and center channel do almost all the work (anything on-screen basically), and I wouldn't put more money into driving the L/R channels.

My favorite are the blind tests where people are certain that amp A sounds better than amp B, and they end up being the same amp lol. It's actually very similar to blind wine testing - if you tell people that test item A costs more than test item B, more people will say A is better even if they are again presented with the exact same product unknowingly.

[sneek]

I grabbed a Bryston 4b several years ago and I'm pretty happy with it. I am running electrostatic speakers so they are a bit power hungry but I don't remember the specs of the 4B as it was at least 7 years ago.

[Asian_defender]

Its powering paradigm studio 100s ( https://www.paradigm.com/en/floorstanding/studio-100). And a studio CC v2 (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/fu...wake-forest-nc)

The denon is rated at 125wpc but that seems to be just a marketing number as its 710w for power consumption. Looking to add 2 more speakers for dolby atmos so I'm worried that there wont be enough juice to power the 3 fronts. I have center spread on so the center is spread through the center and 2 towers. From my understanding it's only 1 amp so the more speakers running the less power each one gets.

I will look into upgrading the sub so thanks for that suggestion

[Buster]

If you're going to get separates may as well get a processor instead of a receiver. But I think mitsu is right.

I have an emotiva xmc1 and am emotiva mps-2 modular amp.

[ganesh]

I used to run a Bryston 4B with Marantz SR19-EX and I was really happy with the results. But it became a pain when I wanted to listen to music (2Ch) and went with separates. - Rotel Power amp and Rotel Processor. It was ok but no where closer to the Bryston set up.
In the current house AudioRoom did a full HT install and I went with Arcam 550 and I am happy with the results. Arcam comes with Dirac and NAD also does the same. If you are particular about audio quality you will like Arcam.

Power Amps will give you the extra head room which you won't find it in the receivers. if you are already looking at the Power Amp route you already know the benefits of it.
IMO spend the money on a good receiver and do the calibration and some room treatment.

[Mitsu3000gt]

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Its powering paradigm studio 100s ( https://www.paradigm.com/en/floorstanding/studio-100). And a studio CC v2 (https://www.audiogon.com/listings/fu...wake-forest-nc)

The denon is rated at 125wpc but that seems to be just a marketing number as its 710w for power consumption. Looking to add 2 more speakers for dolby atmos so I'm worried that there wont be enough juice to power the 3 fronts. I have center spread on so the center is spread through the center and 2 towers. From my understanding it's only 1 amp so the more speakers running the less power each one gets.

I will look into upgrading the sub so thanks for that suggestion

I have Studio 80's and Studio 20's, have auditioned Studio 100v5's many times and have done almost all of my amplifier comparisons on Paradigm speakers. You do not need separates for those speakers in my opinion if you have a decent receiver - if you really want more power you should just buy a more powerful receiver and put the money for separates into something else that will make a bigger difference like calibration, room treatments, or better sub. Studio 100s' are very efficient too - the maximum power input that speaker can even take is only 230W and they will run very well on a lot less. Are you having to max out the volume on your receiver?

The 125wpc rating is almost certainly for 2ch, so it probably drops to somewhere around 90-100wpc with all channels driven. That particular receiver also is ~30lbs and has discrete amps, it has a pretty good amp section. Surrounds do almost nothing while watching a movie, I wouldn't worry too much about having enough power for them - again, your center and sub do the majority of the work in any movie.

When looking for HT upgrades (of any type), by far the most important thing is to make sure you can actually hear a difference in a properly set up, fair blind test, repeatedly, over and over again otherwise you are wasting your money. The "blind" part is very important because once you have knowledge of which one costs more or is supposed to sound better, that can have a significant influence. This is best done in your own listening environment, but if that is not possible, any reputable stereo shop will set one up for you. The point of diminishing return in the HT world is extremely low, so if you are spending money on stuff like this make sure the difference is very noticeable to you - not what the guy at the audio store claims they can hear or says you should be hearing That is the most important thing. Keep in mind that self proclaimed audiophiles and people who claim to have 'golden ears' have miserably failed pretty well every blind test I have ever read about with regards to both amplifier quality and speaker wire quality, provided it was set up in a fair manner (i.e. everything having adequate power).

At the very least, if you're for sure going to get the new speakers, get them first before buying a new receiver or separates and only upgrade if your current receiver doesn't have enough power, but I suspect it has more than enough.




Here's are the results of a well known amplifier test done by Bruce Coppola (the bookmark I had is broken but this is the jist):

A number of amplifiers across various price points and types are tested. The listeners are self declared believers and skeptics as to whether audiophile claims are true or not.

There were 13 sessions with different numbers of listeners each time. The difference between skeptic and believer performance was small, with 2 skeptics getting the highest correct score and 1 believer getting the lowest. The overall average was 50.5% getting it right, so that is the same as you would expect from a random guess result. The cheapest Pioneer amp was perfectly capable of outperforming the more expensive amps and it was ‘striking similar to the Levinson‘.

Another article with an explanation of how amps can all sound the same, here is a Wikipedia entry on Bob Carver and his blind test amp challenges ($6000 vs $400 in 1985 dollars ($14,000 vs $900 2018 dollars). Spoiler alert, everyone failed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ca...ifier_modeling




Another blind test, $700 vs $12,000:

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

The results were;
38 persons participated on this test
14 chose the "A" system as the best sounding one
10 chose the "B" system as the best sounding one
14 were not able to hear differences or didn't choose any as the best.

Once again, the same as random guessing.


And just for fun: Monster Cable vs Coat Hanger: https://consumerist.com/2008/03/03/d...onster-cables/

[msommers]

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Its powering paradigm studio 100s ( https://www.paradigm.com/en/floorstanding/studio-100).

Sweet you're still rocking the Studio's I sold you awhile ago!

Amps can be fun, especially when you get into tubes. The speakers are not a demanding load so you have flexibility and a plethora of options.

You could always try a Bryston at home to demo. If it doesn't make a lick of difference to you, you don't have to buy it.

In the world of digital I've found that a good quality dac is really important. A lot of dacs are shit in so many all-in-one units because there is only so much you can cram in there.

[Asian_defender]

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Sweet you're still rocking the Studio's I sold you awhile ago!

Amps can be fun, especially when you get into tubes. The speakers are not a demanding load so you have flexibility and a plethora of options.

You could always try a Bryston at home to demo. If it doesn't make a lick of difference to you, you don't have to buy it.

In the world of digital I've found that a good quality dac is really important. A lot of dacs are shit in so many all-in-one units because there is only so much you can cram in there.

Still rocking them and havent look back
I can rent a Bryston???

[msommers]

Rent...not really but sort of. K&W should be able to help you out, they also carry Paradigm and might have better ideas on amp matching.

[Asian_defender]

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I have Studio 80's and Studio 20's, have auditioned Studio 100v5's many times and have done almost all of my amplifier comparisons on Paradigm speakers. You do not need separates for those speakers in my opinion if you have a decent receiver - if you really want more power you should just buy a more powerful receiver and put the money for separates into something else that will make a bigger difference like calibration, room treatments, or better sub. Studio 100s' are very efficient too - the maximum power input that speaker can even take is only 230W and they will run very well on a lot less. Are you having to max out the volume on your receiver?

The 125wpc rating is almost certainly for 2ch, so it probably drops to somewhere around 90-100wpc with all channels driven. That particular receiver also is ~30lbs and has discrete amps, it has a pretty good amp section. Surrounds do almost nothing while watching a movie, I wouldn't worry too much about having enough power for them - again, your center and sub do the majority of the work in any movie.

When looking for HT upgrades (of any type), by far the most important thing is to make sure you can actually hear a difference in a properly set up, fair blind test, repeatedly, over and over again otherwise you are wasting your money. The "blind" part is very important because once you have knowledge of which one costs more or is supposed to sound better, that can have a significant influence. This is best done in your own listening environment, but if that is not possible, any reputable stereo shop will set one up for you. The point of diminishing return in the HT world is extremely low, so if you are spending money on stuff like this make sure the difference is very noticeable to you - not what the guy at the audio store claims they can hear or says you should be hearing That is the most important thing. Keep in mind that self proclaimed audiophiles and people who claim to have 'golden ears' have miserably failed pretty well every blind test I have ever read about with regards to both amplifier quality and speaker wire quality, provided it was set up in a fair manner (i.e. everything having adequate power).

At the very least, if you're for sure going to get the new speakers, get them first before buying a new receiver or separates and only upgrade if your current receiver doesn't have enough power, but I suspect it has more than enough.




Here's are the results of a well known amplifier test done by Bruce Coppola (the bookmark I had is broken but this is the jist):





Another article with an explanation of how amps can all sound the same, here is a Wikipedia entry on Bob Carver and his blind test amp challenges ($6000 vs $400 in 1985 dollars ($14,000 vs $900 2018 dollars). Spoiler alert, everyone failed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ca...ifier_modeling




Another blind test, $700 vs $12,000:

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

The results were;
38 persons participated on this test
14 chose the "A" system as the best sounding one
10 chose the "B" system as the best sounding one
14 were not able to hear differences or didn't choose any as the best.

Once again, the same as random guessing.


And just for fun: Monster Cable vs Coat Hanger: https://consumerist.com/2008/03/03/d...onster-cables/

Thank you for some very solid advice, I find I'm having to crank the system to about 80ish. Max is 95
The sub makes sense as my current subs are cheap shitty subs, I'll look into upgrading them first before I add the Atmos speakers

[Mitsu3000gt]

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Thank you for some very solid advice, I find I'm having to crank the system to about 80ish. Max is 95
The sub makes sense as my current subs are cheap shitty subs, I'll look into upgrading them first before I add the Atmos speakers

You're welcome.

At the end of the day just make sure whatever you do is noticeable to you, and not only sometimes - especially if you're spending significant money. If you end up needing more power, I'd look into a more powerful receiver rather than separates. Pioneer Elite typically rates their receivers with all channels driven and they use D-class amps ("ice power") which keeps them very cool under load. There is nothing wrong with your Denon though, that is a nice unit.

Also if you've run Audyssey calibration, it can mess with your volume ratings if, say, it is reducing some of your speakers by -5dB for calibration purposes. I had a tiny HT room where I used to live and it would reduce output by 9-12dB on some channels at any given volume level. I usually manually adjust my center channel and rear surrounds a few dB louder than the Audyssey calibration sets them at to make them pop.

You already have great speakers and equipment by the sounds of things, so better sub(s), room treatments, calibration, bigger TV/Projector screen, etc. are all probably better places to spend money for maximum return.

Another suggestion is if you buy more surrounds, I would't buy Paradigm Studio grade surrounds - all they are ever going to play is the odd gunshot or helicopter noise, so you can spend a lot less there for the exact same effect. If you're worried about timbre matching you can still stay in the Paradigm brand with the Monitor series or something. I use Paradigm Atom Monitors for my surrounds, they were around $400/pr and are more than enough for surround noises.

[Asian_defender]

Didnt know Audyssey did that. I will check my settings.
I'll probably Jerry rig something for that and use a pair of atoms pointing at the ceiling. Kinda ghetto but itll do
Anyone here got sub recommendations? 500ish budget

[legendboy]

I have 2 InterM QD-4480 quad bridgeable power amps for sale if you are interested

http://www.inter-m.net/_upload/produ..._specsheet.pdf

Not Bryson but highly regarded

[Asian_defender]

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I have 2 InterM QD-4480 quad bridgeable power amps for sale if you are interested

http://www.inter-m.net/_upload/produ..._specsheet.pdf

Not Bryson but highly regarded

Sorry I only have RCA outs on my amp. Dont have any XLRs

[Mitsu3000gt]

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Didnt know Audyssey did that. I will check my settings.
I'll probably Jerry rig something for that and use a pair of atoms pointing at the ceiling. Kinda ghetto but itll do
Anyone here got sub recommendations? 500ish budget

This is actually a pretty good deal, but whether or not it works for your room I don't know:

https://gibbyselectronicsupermarket....red-subwoofer/

This series of sub is compatible with the Paradigm PBK-1 (Perfect Bass Kit) which is the best sub calibration in the business and in my personal experience the single largest difference I have heard in either of my setups pre/post calibration. The magnitude of the difference will depend on how good or bad your room is to begin with though - my rooms had horrible acoustics (most are), so it made a huge difference. What it does is remove nulls and boomy spots in the room, and removes resonant frequencies. It basically makes the bass sound way tighter and punchier, exactly how it is intended (compared to a room that has poor acoustics and no correction). In any given room that isn't acoustically perfect, there will be bass frequencies that get artificially amplified (boomy spots) and also bass frequencies that basically disappear (nulls) - you want to smooth those out and calibration is the only way to do it perfectly, especially if you don't want to move your sub around.

If your budget is really low for a sub, the other thing you can do is look at the well regarded internet direct companies like SVS, HSU Research, Rythmik Audio. The only problem is you can't calibrate them as easily - Audyssey on your receiver will do an OK job but it does not have dedicated sub calibration.

How big is your room? If you can't get something suitable for the room size I wouldn't bother until you can fit it in the budget.

Here is one of my rooms pre/post PBK-1 - you can see the bass response was an absolute disaster, and it was able to correct it almost flawlessly to the ideal/target curve.

[Asian_defender]

After some very very extensive research I have decided on 2. I think I want to stick to a ported sub
The SVS PB2000 and the paradigm defiance v12
Had not considered the defiance line until I discovered that they have a cell phone app for room correction. Don't know how good it'll be but probably way better than Audyssey
Paradigm won't hit the lows as the SVS but I think it'll make up for it with the room correction plus it'll be about $650ish vs $1100 for the SVS
Thoughts?