Distracted driving ticket court case - did i win or lose?

[phil98z24]

Well, there you have it. Hate to say it, but if their testimony was by memory and not aided by the notes they wrote, I can see why they told you there is no way to prove fabrication or perjury. If that’s their memory and it differs from their notes which they didn’t refer to, and it does differ from your video, then it’s a question of bad memory recall and almost impossible to prove they willfully lied under oath. This bit of information changes many things about this.

With this in mind and not trying to diminish your frustration or allegation, have you considered that maybe it was just that and nothing more? What do their notes say compared to your dash cam video? How about their testimony versus their notes? It would be incredibly foolish to willingly and deliberately lie under oath when there is a written record of their observations made af the time. That’s something to also consider.

If those don’t match and their observations still the time don’t match video evidence, that’s where you have a case. But I think the court part will be done if they didn’t use notes and were testifying based on memory. Just my two bits on that. Would be interested to hear of the rcmp have a different take on it though.

[gwill]

I appreciate your insight phil. What your suggesting is an officer can take the stand and blindly say anything they want with no justification and if caught lying on the stand that it's not a big deal.

Where is the justice in that?

In the end I have nothing to gain other then to hold the rcmp and bylaw accountable for lying on the stand. Someone should be held accountable.

Their notes verify parts of my dash cam in terms of time/location. That's it. Some of their notes mention I drove my truck with no hands when that's physically impossible. I'll need to take a closer look at them tho to see what else may vary.

I think it's important to note the rcmp officer admitted on the stand that his version of events didnt happen. Will that change things?? Guess I'll see soon enough.

[gwill]

and to add on my thoughts to you Phil. After the bylaws investigative findings I dont doubt your spot on hence why I'm asking for a legal opinion from someone in the next month or so.

[CompletelyNumb]

So by not referring to their notes, they're not able to be held to any standard of honesty, as they can't say it was a memory issue.

Sad for officers that just genuinely have a lapse in memory, vs officers that may use this as a method to deceive.

No way to prove which is which either.

[phil98z24]

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I appreciate your insight phil. What your suggesting is an officer can take the stand and blindly say anything they want with no justification and if caught lying on the stand that it's not a big deal.

Where is the justice in that?

In the end I have nothing to gain other then to hold the rcmp and bylaw accountable for lying on the stand. Someone should be held accountable.

Their notes verify parts of my dash cam in terms of time/location. That's it. Some of their notes mention I drove my truck with no hands when that's physically impossible. I'll need to take a closer look at them tho to see what else may vary.

I think it's important to note the rcmp officer admitted on the stand that his version of events didnt happen. Will that change things?? Guess I'll see soon enough.

I’m not suggesting that at all, sorry if that’s how it came across. I’m saying that if they didn’t refer to notes and went by memory, unless you have something to prove they went up and there and willingly lied, it’ll be hard to prove it wasn’t a memory issue. I did not st all say it wasn’t a big deal, nor justified. I was among the first to say it needs to be dealt with. Now I’m saying based on the information, unless you can offer up or there is some evidence they willingly went against what they wrote, or is so wildly differing from reality to be unreasonable, etc, it likely won’t go anywhere.

If the rcmp officer admitted his version of events didn’t happen, after he testified to the opposite, then you have something. Being confronted with the facts and then saying he was wrong and that his version didn’t happen is admitting he either lied or his memory of it was totally wrong.

Please don’t think I was saying it’s not a big deal, or that it doesn’t need to be dealt with. Quite the opposite. You just may be in tough.

[phil98z24]

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So by not referring to their notes, they're not able to be held to any standard of honesty, as they can't say it was a memory issue.

Sad for officers that just genuinely have a lapse in memory, vs officers that may use this as a method to deceive.

No way to prove which is which either.

Well, it makes you wonder why they wouldn’t refer to them. I would say notes made at the time of their observations would sure be more reliable, and at least can be held up against video that can prove what they wrote can’t possibly be grounded in reality.

Yes, it’s unfortunate for others. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, but it could be. It could also be a legit memory issue. Just saying there are two different ways to look at it, and you’re right, how do you prove which one is which? Definitely a tough one.

[phil98z24]

Good call. I do hope if these guys were lying, it’s discovered and dealt with. Don’t need anyone like this in law enforcement, period.

[gwill]

If you think i should focus more on the ticket itself vs testimony in the court then ill send off an email to point out the specific inconsistencies. The hand writing is hard to read but here are a few notes that were written by who i think was the rcmp:

1. observed holding cell in right hand 2. as mv driver was making turn wb on ____ he took left hand off the wheel and was manipulating phone with both hands 3. no hands on wheel as making turn 4. clear unobstructed observed aprox 5-7 secs 5. t stop at ____

My dash cam shows a smooth turn through the light. No jerking. Vehicle is under control going 40+ km through a green turning light. Shows a split second where the undercover comes into view of my dash cam. There is not a clear and unobstructed view of my vehicle for anywhere as long as they suggest on the ticket.

In Court the RCMP officer claimed i was stopped at a red light. The rcmp officer reenacted a scene where i was playing on my phone at this red light. He still claimed i drove through the light with no hands and suggested i used my knees. He claimed my vehicle jerked as i turned. He claimed he was beside my vehicle for upwards of 60 seconds. He also claimed they never lost sight of my vehicle but this is false as is proven by the notes on the ticket. His testimony goes so far off the deep end that almost nothing he spoke of in court backs up his notes.

What i believe are the bylaw officers notes it discuss seeing my vehicle 2 miles from the original stop. He writes they catch up to me down the road. Theres lots of notes on all the different roads and where i eventually turn. He says i was seen with both hands on my phone and that he sees me turn the corner with no hands on the wheel.

[revelations]

Are you willing (or able ) to post the court transcript here some how (redacted)? It might provide more insight.

But as Phil said, its a case of a member not relying on their notes in traffic court and you not having an iron-clad defense with a cab-facing dash cam. You do make good points though and obviously were able to articulate your defense.

[gwill]

I dont have the transcripts from the court. I dont doubt Phil's perspective in any way. I recall the issue of intent was brought up by him over a month ago.

But what I'm hearing from him is if the testimony differs from the notes they wrote compared to their testimony they gave in court then I would have a better foundation of a complaint. I believe that is there with the rcmp officer.

Anyways I'll be sure to update on the progress of the complaint and will post what the lawyer advises after I meet.

[Type_S1]

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Well, it makes you wonder why they wouldn’t refer to them. I would say notes made at the time of their observations would sure be more reliable, and at least can be held up against video that can prove what they wrote can’t possibly be grounded in reality.

Yes, it’s unfortunate for others. I’m not saying that’s what happened here, but it could be. It could also be a legit memory issue. Just saying there are two different ways to look at it, and you’re right, how do you prove which one is which? Definitely a tough one.

So if this officer is found to have “had a bad memory” (which come on Phil, there are lots of bad apple officers that lie all the time and you know it), could every one of his past tickets where he testified be called into question based on bad memory? If the facts stated by the OP are true and the officers weren’t lying, the officers must have serious memory problems, or be slightly retarded, which to me falls into question all other cases they’ve appeared in. Is this something that ever gets looked at?

[Mitsu3000gt]

Sounds like they didn't refer to the notes because they didn't like what they said...super shady. They probably just refer to their notes when it suits their narrative, and use "memory" when it doesn't.

[gwill]

I think understanding why a rcmp/bylaw officer would lie on the stand or give a version of events that's so different is an interesting question. I think the answer is simple tho.

Generally speaking officers on a traffic stop can say almost anything and its he said she said on the stand and theres never any risk of getting caught on the little details. In the end the 2 officers in my stop were WAY too comfortable and got caught with their story not matching the evidence.

I've fought 3 traffic tickets that went to trial in 5 years and in each one there have been misrepresentations or straight out lies in each trial. It's not a coincidence.

[msommers]

Wow this is pretty crazy. I bet if Gwill went in to fight this ticket, only to have a "bad memory" also, his ticket sure as hell wouldn't have been tossed out.

[Gman.45]

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I think understanding why a rcmp/bylaw officer would lie on the stand or give a version of events that's so different is an interesting question. I think the answer is simple tho.

Generally speaking officers on a traffic stop can say almost anything and its he said she said on the stand and theres never any risk of getting caught on the little details. In the end the 2 officers in my stop were WAY too comfortable and got caught with their story not matching the evidence.

I've fought 3 traffic tickets that went to trial in 5 years and in each one there have been misrepresentations or straight out lies in each trial. It's not a coincidence.

I've put dash cams in our vehicles which record the inside of the vehicle as well as forward for this specific reason. I might buy small clip on body cameras and leave them in center consoles/etc just in case I/we need that as well. I've also gotten in the habit of locking my phone in a compartment far out of reach, and if the phone is in there it's impossible to get set up by officer not-so-friendly regarding the whole "you were 100% using your phone" trick. All our vehicles but one are new enough to connect to Android/Apple through bluetooth or whatever anyway once the phone is close by or inside the vehicle.

Luckily the L/E in the area I live right now are very solid IMO, and I rate the odds of anything like the OP deal happening to be very slim, but driving on the highway as much as we do, through a pile of different RCMP districts/towns - this is the reason for the steps taken so far.

[gwill]

Long time since last update.

Just checked the mail and I got a letter aug 26th stating my rcmp complaint is finished and now under review. I will be updated every 30 days until their review is completed. Guess i should check my mail more often.

The lawyer I happened to meet with aug 26th showed me how to foip the court transcripts and everything from my bylaw complaint that's pending appeal. The foip was way easier then I expected. They advised me to ask for my complaints to hold off until I recieved my foiped documents and provided some options for appeal if needed when it came to the rcmp complaint.

I may ask the bylaw appeal to hold off on their findings until my foip is completed but as the rcmp review is completed it's a bit late to ask them to hold off.

[schurchill39]

I love that you're fighting this!

[spikerS]

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I love that you're fighting this!

Me too. I wish I had the drive and resources to do the same. I can say for sure that if I were in his shoes, I would have given up a long time ago.

[JRSC00LUDE]

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I can say for sure that if I were in his shoes, I would have given up a long time ago.

Which is exactly what that corrupt, profit driven extortion system is designed to make you do.

[Kloubek]

Not on here as much as I used to be, but glad I just came across this.

My thoughts:
I will echo others in thanking you for persuing this. While it might put a target on you in Ponoka I imagine you will be free of general repercussions with the RCMP overall.

The way your court sessions went, I am truly appalled. The judge threatening to increase fines and acting all high and mighty - judges are *supposed* to be impartial.

Then there is the cops not telling facts. I don't care if they had notes or not - we as citizens shouldn't be subject to even misremembering since we all know who's word the judge will take. With that said, it really does sound like there was an awful lot of misremembering rather specific information. Imo, WAY too much to be a coincidence. It really sounds like they tried to railroad you here, and the judge was all part of the process as well - either directly complicit or otherwise.

Finally, congrats on winning. Most people would not have been as prepared and would probably have lost.

I'm not at all one to bash the cops, but this is unacceptable.