Dash cams on planes

[speedog]

Tonight's surfing has included the reading of a number of Wikipedia articles on various air disasters, a few of which involved twin engined planes that had trouble in one engine but that had the crew shut down or idle back the good engine because of a misunderstanding of indicators or how the situation presented itself to the flight crew.

In most cases it sounds like the pilots are unable to look back at the engines to visually verify a situation and as such, I'm left wondering why there are not any cameras mounted on a plane that can give pilots a view of critical components such as engines, control surfaces, etc.

We have cars that can present an almost mind boggling amount of proximity alert information and video to a driver and yet none of this seems available on any plane. Now maybe I'm amiss and such technology does exist in modern planes but if it isn't, then why not?

[ExtraSlow]

On jet planes, would a view help? How much can you really see?

[revelations]

On the heavies, there are cameras mounted all over to view, selectively, different areas of the ship.

This is from a 777, from the 90s - newer ships have many more angles.



Otherwise, certifying anything in the aviation business is hugely expensive and adds to the cost of the cheaper ships which, lower cost carriers tend to avoid.

[Maxx Mazda]

If you’re talking about cameras to monitor the pilots, FUCKING HARD NO it won’t improve safety, nor will our unions allow it in a million years.

If you’re talking about cameras that monitor the outside of the aircraft, they already exist.

While the technology has become cheaper and cheaper in the last few decades, it’s not as simple as updating the newest planes with every model year like you do in vehicles. For example, the A320 that pilots are type rated on, built and certified in 1982, need to be basically the same (with some minor exceptions) as the ones rolling off the assembly line in 2019. This is the same thing Boeing ran into with the 50 year old 737 and the MAX. You can’t just slap in some new tech and release it as a new airplane. It takes thousands of hours of certification (which costs money and negates the benefit of the lower cost of the new tech) just to get it certified in the first place.

[speedog]

No, not cameras to monitor pilots. Cameras to give pilots views that they can't see from the cockpit and it appears that they do indeed exist. I'm not one that's up on aviation tech/etc and that's why I posed the question in my initial post - knowing there are at least a few beyond members who in the aviation field, I figured they'd have some good insight.

[Maxx Mazda]

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No, not cameras to monitor pilots. Cameras to give pilots views that they can't see from the cockpit and it appears that they do indeed exist. I'm not one that's up on aviation tech/etc and that's why I posed the question in my initial post - knowing there are at least a few beyond members who in the aviation field, I figured they'd have some good insight.

Ah ok. Yeah, they do indeed exist. In fact, some airlines actually let passengers get the feed from said cameras. I believe Emirates etc allow the tail cam and belly cam footage to be displayed on the IFE screens for the pax.

Some of the newer airbus narrowbody fleet that AC has purchased from WOW airlines and TAP, have the cabin camera option installed which gives us a view of who’s outside the cockpit door in the cabin, as well I believe the wodebody fleet (minus the 767) has this option as well.

[Aleks]

Would cockpit video recorders that only record last 30 min of flight be of use in accident investigations?

[Maxx Mazda]

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Would cockpit video recorders that only record last 30 min of flight be of use in accident investigations?

There’d be no more information to gain that can’t already be pulled from the DFDR and CVR. Would never happen.

[bjstare]

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If you’re talking about cameras to monitor the pilots, FUCKING HARD NO it won’t improve safety, nor will our unions allow it in a million years.

Care to elaborate?

I'm going to assume it's because pilots don't want the public to see how much time they actually spend up there sleeping, drinking, jerking each other off, etc.

[revelations]

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There’d be no more information to gain that can’t already be pulled from the DFDR and CVR. Would never happen.

Thats not true at all. The NTSB and CTSB have been advocating for decades to have flight deck cameras installed for many events.

https://www.skiesmag.com/news/cockpits-on-camera/

- eg. northwest airline pilots fly 150 miles past their airport, both pilots suspected to have been sleeping
- during short final, pilot accidentally touches a lever/button and causes a crash, FDR just shows button pushed - but video evidence would show a design issue
- egypt air 990 (definitely prove that PF pushed down on controls)
- swiss air 111 (where did the smoke originate from?)

Here is an air operator in Fort Mac who has installed cameras in his ships:

In another case, an EC130T2 long-lining a 2,300-pound Kubota mini-ho (small bulldozer) prematurely jettisoned the load. The cockpit camera showed that the pilot’s hand was nowhere near the hook release button when the load departed the aircraft. The pilot, who initially thought he would be fired over the incident, kept his job and Phoenix recovered $83,000 from the company that overhauled the hook prior to the accident in an out-of-court settlement.

In yet another incident, a pilot coming off 15 days of firefighting duty spun an aircraft during an engine wash, damaging a ground power cart and breaking some of the helicopter’s windows. The video showed the pilot, who initially blamed the mishap on the helicopter, was on his phone, not wearing a helmet or flight suit, didn’t have his feet on the pedals or hands on the controls at the time of the accident. Several of these conditions were violations of the company’s operating procedures, but Phoenix Heli-Flight also used the video to revise its policies concerning fatigue.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ockpit-cameras

[Maxx Mazda]

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Care to elaborate?

I'm going to assume it's because pilots don't want the public to see how much time they actually spend up there sleeping, drinking, jerking each other off, etc.

Exactly what I said above. Our unions would never allow it, nor would any pilots want to work with a camera over their shoulder. Your assumptions on what happens behind the closed door are pretty unfounded, however. Sure, it can be boring, monotonous work at times, but there is still lots of work to do, and there's plenty you can do to keep your mind occupied when the workload isn't as high.

[revelations]

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Exactly what I said above. Our unions would never allow it, nor would any pilots want to work with a camera over their shoulder. Your assumptions on what happens behind the closed door are pretty unfounded, however. Sure, it can be boring, monotonous work at times, but there is still lots of work to do, and there's plenty you can do to keep your mind occupied when the workload isn't as high.

Here are some other union workers who operate equipment:

- CP rail has cameras in the cab
- Police have body cameras
- City and many long haul bus drivers have cameras in the cab


As far as "nor would any pilots want to work with a camera over their shoulder."

Then they wont work. The air operator will just find someone else.
The air operator earlier mentioned, with the cameras in their ships, was able to cut their insurance costs WAY down.

Its going to go that way eventually. The unions better get their act together.

Further, in 10-20 years the concept of a single pilot airline ops will come of age and cameras will absolutely be required there.

[Maxx Mazda]

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Here are some other union workers who operate equipment:

- CP rail has cameras in the cab
- Police have body cameras
- City and many long haul bus drivers have cameras in the cab


As far as "nor would any pilots want to work with a camera over their shoulder."

Then they wont work. The air operator will just find someone else.
The air operator earlier mentioned, with the cameras in their ships, was able to cut their insurance costs WAY down.

Its going to go that way eventually. The unions better get their act together.

Further, in 10-20 years the concept of a single pilot airline ops will come of age and cameras will absolutely be required there.

It goes against every single pillar of safety with regards to human factors that aviation was built on. A "dash cam" looking forward out the windshield is a whole different ball game compared to a camera that gets to video tape the pilots. Under what circumstances would the footage be used? It's a slippery slope. Already, we have CVR's and FDR's, but the data from those can ONLY ever be downloaded in the event of an accident. SMS (safety management systems) in place at any airline, big or small, relies on non-punitive self reporting by the pilots to improve safety industry wide. For example, say I bust an altitude. ATC clears me to climb to 35,000' but instead i mistakenly dial in 36,000'. Just passing FL350, they'll query me, I'll level the airplane off, and that'll be that. Its a reportable incident, however, so I'll need to file an Air Safety Report, and confess to my fuck up. How does it make flying safer? Well, maybe I was tired because I had minimum rest. Maybe the controller made an error, and I was expecting 360 as the altitude. Maybe the altitude selector display was difficult to read with the angle the sun was shining on it. Point is, things like that as simple as they may seem, help improve safety in the industry as a whole. They look at everything, but human error is a big part of that. Nobody is perfect, but fessing up when we fuck up is the best way to LEARN from your mistakes and ensure they don't happen again.

Putting a camera in the cockpit to spy on the pilots will basically remove any possibility of that happening. "Oh shit, I turned the wrong way and now I'm gonna get yelled at because it's all on camera."

Bottom line is, there is a pretty high level of professionalism among pilots. We cross check each other to prevent mistakes, and we hold ourselves accountable. Putting a camera in the cockpit would give the impression that there is no trust in the front end crew by the company, the travelling public, etc. Not a good scenario to have. Not only that, but where does it stop? Today it's video recoded to be used only in the event of an accident. Tomorrow it's a live feed to the seatback monitors in the cabin where passengers can see when I get up to take a piss, or god forbid take my tie off up at cruise altitude.

Just like single pilot airliners, it will never happen. At least not in my lifetime.

[Tik-Tok]

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Just like single pilot airliners, it will never happen. At least not in my lifetime.

Single pilot onboard airliners are definitely going to happen in our lifetime, the flight deck camera will be moot after that happens. There will be camera's pointing at the "pilot" controlling the aircraft from a ground station though.

[revelations]

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It goes against every single pillar of safety with regards to human factors that aviation was built on. A "dash cam" looking forward out the windshield is a whole different ball game compared to a camera that gets to video tape the pilots. Under what circumstances would the footage be used? It's a slippery slope. Already, we have CVR's and FDR's, but the data from those can ONLY ever be downloaded in the event of an accident. SMS (safety management systems) in place at any airline, big or small, relies on non-punitive self reporting by the pilots to improve safety industry wide. For example, say I bust an altitude. ATC clears me to climb to 35,000' but instead i mistakenly dial in 36,000'. Just passing FL350, they'll query me, I'll level the airplane off, and that'll be that. Its a reportable incident, however, so I'll need to file an Air Safety Report, and confess to my fuck up. How does it make flying safer? Well, maybe I was tired because I had minimum rest. Maybe the controller made an error, and I was expecting 360 as the altitude. Maybe the altitude selector display was difficult to read with the angle the sun was shining on it. Point is, things like that as simple as they may seem, help improve safety in the industry as a whole. They look at everything, but human error is a big part of that. Nobody is perfect, but fessing up when we fuck up is the best way to LEARN from your mistakes and ensure they don't happen again.

Putting a camera in the cockpit to spy on the pilots will basically remove any possibility of that happening. "Oh shit, I turned the wrong way and now I'm gonna get yelled at because it's all on camera."

Bottom line is, there is a pretty high level of professionalism among pilots. We cross check each other to prevent mistakes, and we hold ourselves accountable. Putting a camera in the cockpit would give the impression that there is no trust in the front end crew by the company, the travelling public, etc. Not a good scenario to have. Not only that, but where does it stop? Today it's video recoded to be used only in the event of an accident. Tomorrow it's a live feed to the seatback monitors in the cabin where passengers can see when I get up to take a piss, or god forbid take my tie off up at cruise altitude.

Just like single pilot airliners, it will never happen. At least not in my lifetime.

Bottom line: you think youre hot shit and above those other unions where operator-facing/monitoring cameras have already been implemented.

-I just gave you some examples of how a provincial (AB) air operator has been able to make it work for everyone. Other operators will follow suit very quickly.

If youre flying around in my million dollar ship, you can bet that I would not hesitate to install cameras to a) reduce insurance costs b) help out pilots c) fire habitually bad pilots (there are some).

-I just gave you an example of where pilots think their shit hot and DONT fess up when they fuck up.
-I just gave you the CTSB and NTSB recommendations for them. You're in complete DISAGREEMENT with their assessments.

Single pilot airliners are coming in the next decade or two. Boeing patented their BUAP system back in 2006. Its been embedded in their software (well, Honeywells - but eventually Boeing) at LEAST since that time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing...ible_Autopilot
It will start with UPS and Amazon ships and then progress from there.

The 797 ship will be designed with the option of single pilot operations.
https://airlinerwatch.com/airlines-w...n-the-cockpit/

[Sugarphreak]

...

[Maxx Mazda]

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Bottom line: you think youre hot shit and above those other unions where operator-facing/monitoring cameras have already been implemented.

-I just gave you some examples of how a provincial (AB) air operator has been able to make it work for everyone. Other operators will follow suit very quickly.

If youre flying around in my million dollar ship, you can bet that I would not hesitate to install cameras to a) reduce insurance costs b) help out pilots c) fire habitually bad pilots (there are some).

-I just gave you an example of where pilots think their shit hot and DONT fess up when they fuck up.
-I just gave you the CTSB and NTSB recommendations for them. You're in complete DISAGREEMENT with their assessments.

Single pilot airliners are coming in the next decade or two. Boeing patented their BUAP system back in 2006. Its been embedded in their software (well, Honeywells - but eventually Boeing) at LEAST since that time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing...ible_Autopilot
It will start with UPS and Amazon ships and then progress from there.

The 797 ship will be designed with the option of single pilot operations.
https://airlinerwatch.com/airlines-w...n-the-cockpit/

First off, I most certainly don’t think I’m “hot shit.” And I read the skies article, and yes, I do disagree with it. If improving safety is the name of the game here, I really don’t see how having video footage provides any more information than is already available. As it stands now, every single button press, lever movement, and control input is logged by the DFDR. In addition, so is exactly what was presented to both pilots on their instrument displays.

The case can be made for video footage when an accident is caused deliberately, like GermanWings for example, and that brings me to my next argument on single pilot airliners. The idea is to have one pilot at the controls, and have another remote pilot on the ground monitoring several aircraft at once. What if the guy in the air decides to disable remote control of the aircraft and pile it in like the GermanWings guy did? There’s nobody there to stop him. There are a multitude of reasons why it’ll never work. You need two trained people sitting in the airplane to make those decisions in the event you experience something for which there is no checklist. I also don’t see the flying public being sold on the idea either. As you pointed out above, cargo flights maybe. Sure the technology exists, but as I said above, we won’t see it implemented any time soon on commercial passenger carrying airliners.

[revelations]

Flight deck video will come first into General Aviation - which you are ignoring completely. Thats where its MOST desperately needed to assess crashes/incidents when most ships do not have FDR/CVRs. It will then move into the majors.

Thats exactly what you saw with Phoenix Heli flight out of Fort Mac as well. They are saving money as well as pilots' careers.

As far as ground control of aircraft, you did not read about the ability to remotely control Boeing (and soon, Airbus) aircraft - uninterruptedly.

Things like Germanwings could have been PREVENTED with this (as well as 9/11).

[Maxx Mazda]

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Flight deck video will come first into General Aviation - which you are ignoring completely. Thats where its MOST desperately needed to assess crashes/incidents when most ships do not have FDR/CVRs. It will then move into the majors.

Thats exactly what you saw with Phoenix Heli flight out of Fort Mac as well. They are saving money as well as pilots' careers.

As far as ground control of aircraft, you did not read about the ability to remotely control Boeing (and soon, Airbus) aircraft - uninterruptedly.

Things like Germanwings could have been PREVENTED with this (as well as 9/11).

You honestly think that remote control will have no possibility of being interrupted? Anyone with malicious intent can easily pull a single circuit breaker and disable any sort of remote input. Thinking you could have prevented 9/11 with remote control capability is pretty naïve. What about the FedEx flight that the jumpseat passenger tried to crash? If it weren’t for all three pilots being able to overpower him, the outcome would have been much worse.

[Tik-Tok]

There's more circuit breakers than what you see in the flight deck. Some of the more important ones are downstairs out of reach, and for a reason.