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Thread: Manitoba man jailed after killing home intruder

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    Wow. I started getting good and worked up about this reading some of the responses. Then I read the sub-headline and realized that there is nothing to be concerned about here at all.
    300 years of the same story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelations View Post
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    There is a lot more going on than simple home defense here:




    Its the chasing and then house fighting combined with 13 stab wounds,. Chasing is not self defense anymore. This has been shown time again in Canada.

    Also these two knew each other and had bad history already.

    Also, likely that one or both had criminal records.

    Also, events on First Nations reserves always have other factors that the average North America person doesent have to deal with - for eg. the assailant had free access the dwelling.

    Also, what the fuck does "awoke to a "feeling of being stabbed" in the head" mean? Was he stabbed or not?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    This is NOT the case of a family man defending himself at home, against an unknown assailant.

    Had the defendent simply shot the knife-wielding intruder in their room immediately, rather than give chase - it would have likely been a non issue as far as the police go.
    I think you might be the only one here who actually reads full articles unlike 90% of people who are content with a two sentence summary to make assessments or judgements on things.
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    the guy who was sleeping at night in his bed was almost murdered yet revelations wants to bring up his criminal history that's pulled from thin air as something we should consider??

    Someone being allowed into someone's house doesnt mean anyone can walk in at anytime. I would guess the grandma(homeowner) feared for her safety when she said the one guy was "allowed" over.

    Let's not forget how the hero in okotoks was treated for shooting a fleeing thief. There were huge showings at court, huge donations and massive support for the guy.

    Saskatchewan was the same when a farmer shot a thief yet when a guy has an attempt on his life in his own home somehow his criminal record matters??? Somehow we need to question him while we applaud the rural farmers?

    Why arent we applauding this guy for taking down a murderer? What's different in this story then the home owner in okotoks or the farmer in sask?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill View Post
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    the guy who was sleeping at night in his bed was almost murdered yet revelations wants to bring up his criminal history that's pulled from thin air as something we should consider??

    Someone being allowed into someone's house doesnt mean anyone can walk in at anytime. I would guess the grandma(homeowner) feared for her safety when she said the one guy was "allowed" over.

    Let's not forget how the hero in okotoks was treated for shooting a fleeing thief. There were huge showings at court, huge donations and massive support for the guy.

    Saskatchewan was the same when a farmer shot a thief yet when a guy has an attempt on his life in his own home somehow his criminal record matters??? Somehow we need to question him while we applaud the rural farmers?

    Why arent we applauding this guy for taking down a murderer? What's different in this story then the home owner in okotoks or the farmer in sask?
    Sir, im not going to repeat my case again and again. The case examples you gave I've already mentioned about, twice. They are not 'self defense' in any way.

    On the surface, if one were to JUST read the headline - self defense gone wrong - but if you actually go into the article, running after an assailant, and them stabbing them to death 13 times, is not self defense.

    The threat of deadly force against the defendant had long passed by that time. Had he simply shot the knife-wielding intruder immediately in his bedroom, there would be no discussion here.

    Race has nothing to do with this - I have seen non-FN cases were the home occupant followed and fired shots at the fleeing perps and were charged. If the perps were killed, im sure we would be having the same discussion here.

    This is not self defense.

    In Canada, we can only defend with deadly force IMMEDIATELY if confronted with a deadly force - however case law allows for variations.

    A case comes to mind where a woman in SK kills an unarmed intruder in her home. No charges ever laid.

    https://thestarphoenix.com/news/crim...-duplex-police
    Last edited by revelations; 06-08-2019 at 01:22 PM.

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    You have a funny way of reading things. Even the judge said he was justified in trying to defend himself, but where he went too far was how many times he stabbed him and the kicking afterwards.

    The story reads that he got stabbed in the head, woke up, and "chased" the assailant. Because that person was still there, with intent to kill, and his life was in danger. Fight or flight. Still self defence. (What would you do, hide under the blankets?)

    They got into a struggle. Life still in danger. Still self defence.

    One man gets a hold of the knife. He's lost a lot of blood. Someone's trying to kill him. So he starts stabbing the guy trying to kill him. Probably still self defence, as the attacker could have more weapons, be stronger, and he already is trying to kill you.

    Guy dies. No longer self defence in Canada.

    And that's the problem. Someone stabs you in the head... and you're supposed to disarm them, keep them at bay, and call 911 and wait?
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    In Canada, chasing someone and then killing them, is not self defense - regardless of what transpired earlier. The threat was over the second the person left the defendant.

    Now, had the assailant COME BACK IN THE BEDROOM, and tried to kill the defendant again, and this happened, yes - THAT is self defense.

    And that's the problem. Someone stabs you in the head... and you're supposed to disarm them, keep them at bay, and call 911 and wait?

    No, in Canada you can shoot them if they are in possession of a deadly weapon and are about to use it on you. The moment that the assailant a) doesn't have a weapon or b) flees the scene, it is not self defense.

    This is why unloaded shotguns with mags are great to keep around in a legal manner. Unrestricted and great for CQB, esp against unarmoured opponents. Start with birdshot and/or smaller shot to keep unwanted penetration of occupied areas.
    Last edited by revelations; 06-08-2019 at 02:04 PM.

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    Article was crap journalism for sure, but it did say he lost a lot of blood, so I assume he was stabbed or sliced open. Shock can make it pretty hard to feel pain in the heat of the moment.

    Again for the chasing, maybe it's just bad writing, but I don't read it as "the attacker left the room, and the occupant followed", I read it as "the attacker stabbed the person, and was still present holding the knife, constituting a threat", in which case I say it's fully justified.

    Newspapers should just post court transcripts so we can read for ourselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CompletelyNumb View Post
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    Article was crap journalism for sure, but it did say he lost a lot of blood, so I assume he was stabbed or sliced open. Shock can make it pretty hard to feel pain in the heat of the moment.

    Again for the chasing, maybe it's just bad writing, but I don't read it as "the attacker left the room, and the occupant followed", I read it as "the attacker stabbed the person, and was still present holding the knife, constituting a threat", in which case I say it's fully justified.

    Newspapers should just post court transcripts so we can read for ourselves.
    found a knife-wielding intruder in his room and — not knowing who the person was — chased him into the hallway .... A struggle ensued and continued through the home's main floor and then outside to the deck, where Bunn was stabbed with his own knife 13 times,
    Right in the article (yes. poor CBC journalism as usual)

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    I hope the jury had better semantics to go off of.
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    Chasing someone down, stabbing them 13 times (the last one a fatal stab in the heart) and then kicking the corpse is apparently frowned upon in Canada.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelations View Post
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    Sir, im not going to repeat my case again and again. The case examples you gave I've already mentioned about, twice. They are not 'self defense' in any way.

    On the surface, if one were to JUST read the headline - self defense gone wrong - but if you actually go into the article, running after an assailant, and them stabbing them to death 13 times, is not self defense.

    The threat of deadly force against the defendant had long passed by that time. Had he simply shot the knife-wielding intruder immediately in his bedroom, there would be no discussion here.

    Race has nothing to do with this - I have seen non-FN cases were the home occupant followed and fired shots at the fleeing perps and were charged. If the perps were killed, im sure we would be having the same discussion here.

    This is not self defense.

    In Canada, we can only defend with deadly force IMMEDIATELY if confronted with a deadly force - however case law allows for variations.

    A case comes to mind where a woman in SK kills an unarmed intruder in her home. No charges ever laid.

    https://thestarphoenix.com/news/crim...-duplex-police
    Whether it's self defense or not is all how your lawyer paints it. This is a case of a shitty lawyer and poor jury selection.



    Quote Originally Posted by CompletelyNumb View Post
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    You have a funny way of reading things. Even the judge said he was justified in trying to defend himself, but where he went too far was how many times he stabbed him and the kicking afterwards.

    The story reads that he got stabbed in the head, woke up, and "chased" the assailant. Because that person was still there, with intent to kill, and his life was in danger. Fight or flight. Still self defence. (What would you do, hide under the blankets?)

    They got into a struggle. Life still in danger. Still self defence.

    One man gets a hold of the knife. He's lost a lot of blood. Someone's trying to kill him. So he starts stabbing the guy trying to kill him. Probably still self defence, as the attacker could have more weapons, be stronger, and he already is trying to kill you.

    Guy dies. No longer self defence in Canada.

    And that's the problem. Someone stabs you in the head... and you're supposed to disarm them, keep them at bay, and call 911 and wait?
    Our laws are beyond fucked here. I don't know why something like this has grey area at all? What are you supposed to do? Stab once, ask if intruder is ready to surrender, stab again, ask again, repeat until intruder politely says he will leave.

    Castle doctrine should supersede any grey area of self defense and attacking a fleeing intruder. If the intruder is still in your home, how can you no longer fear for your life? And as long you have reasonable grounds to fear for your life, anything you do is self defense. But no, instead our laws dictate that the intruder just has to turn his back to you, and you can no longer defend yourself while he goes to the other room to regroup or get a better weapon, then you can start defending yourself when he comes back in.

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    Based on how stupid are laws are the guy deserved to be charged. Its standard procedure in Canada to charge those defending their homes but had the guy had a good lawyer he wouldnt have lost.

    I think most reasonable people would agree if your on the brink of death that you should be able defend yourself at any cost.

    If race has nothing to do with this why did someone mention the guy who was almost murdered must have a record which somehow reflects how things should be treated. How did we jump to this conclusion if race had no bearing on peoples perception?

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    "Its standard procedure in Canada to charge those defending their homes" - No it is not, please refer to the example I provided in SK where a woman killed an unarmed intruder. No charges ever laid.

    - criminal history can play a significant part in sentencing. Does the defendant have a history of violent behaviour?

    - believe it or not, articulation of events is a huge determining factor. Your suggestion that you thought the aggressor went in search of another weapon would work too. Perhaps they even said "im going to fuck you up" and then you shot them ??

    - the home, self defense laws in Canada DEFINITELY need to be defined better, as evidenced by the continual confusion.
    Last edited by revelations; 06-10-2019 at 09:29 AM.

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    you assumed both guys had a criminal record and pulled that from thin air. What was the determining factor in making that assumption? I can help you answer that if you find it too difficult to admit.

    Race plays an unfortunate result in issues like this weather people want to admit it or not. Its pretty evident when certain groups of people are treated like heros for shooting thief's and defending their property while others are forgotten or ignored for doing the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill View Post
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    you assumed both guys had a criminal record and pulled that from thin air. What was the determining factor in making that assumption? I can help you answer that if you find it too difficult to admit.

    Race plays an unfortunate result in issues like this weather people want to admit it or not. Its pretty evident when certain groups of people are treated like heros for shooting thief's and defending their property while others are forgotten or ignored for doing the same.
    Personally I don't think this has anything to do with race. However, I imagine he was a little too truthful to police when they came, instead of waiting for a lawyer before talking to police.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gwill View Post
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    you assumed both guys had a criminal record and pulled that from thin air. What was the determining factor in making that assumption? I can help you answer that if you find it too difficult to admit.

    Race plays an unfortunate result in issues like this weather people want to admit it or not. Its pretty evident when certain groups of people are treated like heros for shooting thief's and defending their property while others are forgotten or ignored for doing the same.
    You keep trying to tie different cases together when they have nothing in common with each other, other than you trying to use them to show a racial bias when charges are laid and when an argument of self defense is presented.

    Also, if you had read the article, you would know that the statement about Pratt (the guy who was convicted) having a criminal record was not pulled from thin air. It was published that he had a prior conviction for assault.
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    If you kill an intruder skip 911 and just dispose of the body yourself. You have a better chance of that being the end of it than winning a self defence case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swank View Post
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    If you kill an intruder skip 911 and just dispose of the body yourself. You have a better chance of that being the end of it than winning a self defence case.
    Vitamix and toilet working overtime that night!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disoblige View Post
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    Vitamix and toilet working overtime that night!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swank View Post
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    If you kill an intruder skip 911 and just dispose of the body yourself. You have a better chance of that being the end of it than winning a self defence case.
    Only problem is then if you DO get caught, it's an automatic guilty at that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Disoblige View Post
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    Vitamix and toilet working overtime that night!
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