Solar Power generation in Alberta - Truly competitive now, or soon?

[suntan]

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Ya know, I'm sure there's a way to make your point without being an asshole.
Also, in arctic countries in the winter, the sun is damned near the horizon, so having a vertical panel isn't that far from optimal, and it has other benefits, like simplified install, reduced slow loading etc.

TLDR 1) you are a dick and 2) you are not as smart as you think you are.

If it's that near the horizon, then the power generated is going to be very low anyhow.

Sorry I'm sounding like a dick, but "green" power really pisses me off, a lot of the claims are total fucking bullshit and the industry is chock full of fraudsters. I know a guy that worked for Enbridge's alternative power division, the amount of BS that guy had to sift through from green power people was astounding.

[Darell_n]

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Even without storage, the average payback period is DECADES long here in AB.

A completely stupid government mindset - why are these green technoligies not being promoted harder by those in power?

http://neighbourpower.com/solar-payback-in-alberta/

Those in power make their money from oil and gas.

[Darell_n]

I recently visited family living near Edmonton. They built their house 5 years ago with 12" exterior walls and have 45 PV panels on the home. The solar increased their mortgage by roughly $100/month and they save more than $100/ month in winter with 100% electric heat and sell back much more than $100/month when the output in high and usage low. So I would argue that residential solar is viable now if being used on a well built house.

[rage2]

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Storage is definitely the bottleneck right now, though several new emerging technologies are promising. Chances are this one is solved within the next five years.

I’ll put money on it that it takes longer than 5 years haha.

I wish the Tesla powerwall was better. I’ve always wanted a whole home UPS solution and PW almost fits the need. The problem is the switchover time, it’s terrible compared to anything else out there. Nearly a second to switch between solar, battery or grid, and it does it multiple times a day. Ok so solution is to UPS equipment to bridge that gap right? Nope. UPS can’t handle the power coming from the PW.

I’m not paying Tesla money to have my shit reboot 2-3x a day.

[Tik-Tok]

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I recently visited family living near Edmonton. They built their house 5 years ago with 12" exterior walls and have 45 PV panels on the home. The solar increased their mortgage by roughly $100/month and they save more than $100/ month in winter with 100% electric heat and sell back much more than $100/month when the output in high and usage low. So I would argue that residential solar is viable now if being used on a well built house.

How much did that house cost to build VS a regular house?

[ExtraSlow]

If the house is designed from scratch for energy efficiency and solar installation, it's a pretty compelling value proposition.

[revelations]

Right now I can see NEW, rural properties taking advantage of a ground-mounted solar panel setup with energy storage integrated into the electrical setup.

Urban areas arent fiscally ready for this yet - due to the cost recovery time.

[ExtraSlow]

On a rurual property you could use the battery system instead of a diesel backup generator as well, lowering the cost differential. If you were planning for a diesel generator that is. Not everyone does.

[tonytiger55]

The issue is not Solar per se. It’s mostly a storage issue.

I was watching a video on youtube(I’l try and dig it out later) and a similar question was based on California. This might answer OP's question.

As a example, between 7am-6pm, lots of electricity is produced by the solar panels.
But peak usage starts from 6pm to say 10pm there. i.e When people come home from work, put the lights on, heating and put the oven on to cook a delicious chicken pie. Solar output drops as there is no sun. To get around this the grid can get supplemented by fossil fuel or nuclear.

Usage is also not linear. I cite the UK as a example. If there is a football(soccer) match. At halftime usage spikes as people put the kettle on to make a cup of tea(im not making this up). Power companies have to factor this in to see if any sports events are on.
Now translate this to solar power. You can’t make more sun. So this has to be supplemented by fossil fuel. Kinda like the Prius or any other hybride car. i.e When you floor it, the engine kicks in.

If we go down the Telsa battery route. Batteries on a industrial scale could work. But its not cost effective.
You have to also think about those materials have to be mined, refined, shipped, manufactured and shipped again. That entire supply chain and workers in that process is entirely carbon based*(i.e the diggers, people going to work, shipping all run on fossil fuel). So is it really better?

Take ethanol being added to gasoline as a example. Sounds good, but whats the actual impact? i.e forests being cleared in developing countries so farmers can grow sugarcane. It offset is fuck all. It does more damage. (There is the ongoing joke about the fires in Brazil. The forests could have been started by farmers because they want to grow quinoa due to the market demand. yet the people protesting are probably the main consumers and hence driving the demand, I have no source for this.. just funnies).

Sooo to answers OP main question. Is it viable from a cost effective standpoint. I don't see it from a commercial perspective yet. I could be done to make us feel good. But it could supplement the grid.

That being said, from a residential perspective. If solar is used to heat water for shower and heating. There could be potential.

[JRSC00LUDE]

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How much did that house cost to build VS a regular house?

Exactly, you're not telling a real tale there.

[Darell_n]

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How much did that house cost to build VS a regular house?

That I don't know. It is a 4000 sqft home on 1 acre in a community off a golf course, so nothing I can relate to. Lol

[revelations]

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That I don't know. It is a 4000 sqft home on 1 acre in a community off a golf course, so nothing I can relate to. Lol

Exactly, lets say 1.5m home - adding a 50,000$ solar/battery setup to that would not be as big a deal as say a 25,000$ solar/battery setup to a 400,000$ home.

[msommers]

Storage is definitely a big hurdle right now. Northern communities have an interesting situation: full sun then full darkness. How can you harness full sun while storing the excess for full darkness instead of relying on diesel fuel?

Various northern grants have helped these communities build solar power walls but personally I don't agree with it. Their impact is so small and they already have power generation capabilities. So not only is this money given to not have a long last effect (ie: wasting money), their carbon footprint is actually higher given per capital because of the environmental cost to produce and transport said panels.

Strangely, lithium mining companies all seem to have had their stock prices drop off.

[Darell_n]

I think storage problems will be inconsequential in the long run. Everybody needs to be interconnected to make the system fully efficient. Not many people are off-grid anyway so no point in wasting money on researching whole building energy storage. At least not while the technology is competing with a tank a diesel fuel.

[ZenOps]

Building houses with solar in mind (south facing, no obstruction) will be a huge plus. Calgary is thankfully spread out quite a bit - so there is plenty of open space to put a solar panel on a south facing wall and not have it be blocked by too many obstructions.

Literally, it could be like a retractable shade awning flush against the wall in winter, and providing some extra shade in summer as a bonus.

[revelations]

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Building houses with solar in mind (south facing, no obstruction) will be a huge plus. Calgary is thankfully spread out quite a bit - so there is plenty of open space to put a solar panel on a south facing wall and not have it be blocked by too many obstructions.

Literally, it could be like a retractable shade awning flush against the wall in winter, and providing some extra shade in summer as a bonus.

What rational person is going to do this when the payback period is 15-20 years in Calgary?

[ZenOps]

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What rational person is going to do this when the payback period is 15-20 years in Calgary?

I can imagine people might want to mitigate tail risks in the energy grid. I mean, people build panic rooms that they may use once in a lifetime. The ability to have maybe 2,000+ watts of power generation could be a cheap investment for some.

If the power grid goes down - sure you will be cold. But at least you will have a charged cellphone and maybe a working Netflix connection to ride it out. In which case it probably makes more sense to have a gas generator, but I digress.

Possible scenario: USA goes full socialist, France hits 51 Celsius and convinces world to ban all carbon fuels. Cats and dogs live together.

[Maxt]

Qr77 had a solar system engineer on a while back, he said without a suntracker, it cuts the panel output by half.

[revelations]

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Qr77 had a solar system engineer on a while back, he said without a suntracker, it cuts the panel output by half.

To sum up a rational case for solar power in 2019, in Alberta:

- large area of unobstructed south-facing land (acreage)
- new build >1.5 million
- suntracker and adjustable tilt angle (to get solar reflection off snow in deep winter conditions)
- 10-20 years expected home ownership (probably the life of the solar panels too)

[davidI]

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I have a grid connected solar system on my house paid for by me and the carbon tax while the NDP was still in power. I don't have a battery storage, so the extra juice I generate just gets sold back into the grid. I did the calculations based on the estimates before installing it and I think the payback was 14 years. That of course assumes my consumption stays roughly flat and price doesn't increase. If price goes up, then the time obviously shrinks. Since flipping the switch on in late April, I've generated 4100kwh, which is a bit better than my estimate.

The most interesting things I've noticed are the decreased efficiency on hot days and how little is generated when not in direct sunshine i.e., a cloud comes over and the production drops. I'm really interested to see how it does over the winter months. My panels are all south facing.

Very interesting. Can you detail the system / costs / capacity / etc.?