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Thread: I got a stunting ticket in the mail. Dash cam user complained to police about me.

  1. #361
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    Tl;Dr at bottom.

    Alright guys... the moment we've all been waiting for, for so long, has finally arrived.....

    I arrived for the afternoon trial session at 1245 for a 1330 trial start. Was told outside the room that morning matters were still ongoing and to head into a different room to wait. Apparently the system is really backed up due to Covid. I took a seat facing the entry to watch for the witness, expecting them not to show given how messed up this whole thing got and Covid numbers increasing.

    About 10 mins later.... she walked in. How did I know what she looked like? There was a bulletin sent out by our local Catholic school board naming her the Bus Driver of the Year for 2020 back in Feb.

    So with that, I knew things were proceeding.

    Then the court decided to break for lunch around 1340. I carefully watched to see which Judge was presiding. I saw him walk by and felt my chances of winning just get wiped off the map. It was an older fellow who is known around here for being a wee bit biased towards the Crown and against the defense. In that moment, I mentally prepared myself to lose big time. I had no hope, I mean none. Totally defeated and we hadn't even entered the court room yet.

    1440 rolls around... finally it's time to enter. Hand full of us go in and I was the first trial up.

    I expected the cop to be there but he wasn't. I brought that up first thing and the Judge took a look at the ticket. Since the officer only issued the ticket and wasn't party to the event, I was told by the Judge he wasn't required to be there. I dropped it and moved on.

    Crown called the witness. Asked her the usual stuff, but the she kept injecting her own opinion of the maneuver being unsafe. The Crown also said that it was more serious because it was around a bus full of kids. (I think I should have objected to that as irrelevant but I missed my chance). The Judge told her to stop putting her opinion in. They then played the video. Judge confirmed with me prior to the video playing that I've seen it.

    Video played. Very anti-climactic. Lol, literally a 11 second clip.

    That was it from the Crown. Time for me to cross-examine.

    I had prepared a page of questions, starting with the whole safety aspect of the maneuver itself. I was following along with everything I typed out. Got about 3 questions in and the Judge essentially shut me down saying I was talking about things that never happened (like getting rear ended and crushed into the bus). He also wanted to know more about that terminology (crush zone, crumple zone) as he had never heard of those terms before.

    I moved onto the whole lane definition thing. Things got interesting here. I asked the witness to provide her opinion on what a lane is. The Judge interjected saying that the witness shouldn't have to know what the definition is..... this obviously raised my eyebrows a bit. So I asked if she knew what the legal definition of a lane was or if one existed. To my surprise, she said yes.

    So I asked her to describe what the legal definition of lane was and she ended up saying it was where the lane markings were.

    I asked the Judge if I could read the definition to Court. He asked "off what?" I replied with "Use of highway and Rules of the Road Reg Section 1 (t)".

    He flipped open some document, paused for what seemed like forever, and then allowed it.

    I read it to the court. Turned back to the witness and asked if she knew about the specifics of the definition, which she didn't.

    I then went on about the truck being in their own lane, bus in their own lane, and motorcycle in their own lane so why did she have a problem with the motorcycle.... but this then devolved into a full argument session. It wasn't going well and the Crown eventually piped up and said I was entering an argument phase instead of cross-examining. I agreed and then moved onto the stunting part of my questions?

    I asked why her statement read nothing of the sort in terms of being distracted or startled but then, under examination, she felt "distracted or scared" or some nonsense. She didn't have anything to say and I was done so that was it.

    Crown had closing arguments. Basically said witness was distracted and she was driving a bus full of kids. Didn't really have much else to say.

    Closing arguments from me again consisted of safety increase (Judge shut that down again) and then lane definition (which again turned into a full blown argument over what a lane is, with the Judge going back and forth between me and his documents but then getting tired of it and ultimately saying "There's no lane there. You can say it 27 times. There's no lane. The lane is the markings).

    At this point, I'm saying to myself, yah I'm fucked.

    My last argument centered around the term stunting itself. I explained it was a broad term and that the events need to be of substance to declare a person 'distracted or startled'. I did this by using a previous judgement of "stunting" that I got off CanLii that was done in Alberta Court in 2016. I asked the Judge if I could read it to the Court. He agreed but only to the end result. I read it out saying that the Judge ruled that "the conduct complained of must of a compelling nature, such that the effect or consequence of that conduct on the users of the highway is or is likely to be SERIOUS AND SIGNIFICANT." Otherwise, everyday activities would fall within this section.

    That was it for me. I sat back down and prepared for the verdict.

    The verdict: the Judge hummed and hawed for a moment and then said "There isn't enough here for a conviction on stunting. There isn't enough evidence for stunting. Not guilty."

    I was floored. How the hell did I manage to pull that off!?!?!
    Pretty sure it was the final portion of my closing arguments that made the difference, because before that, I was in a bloodbath.

    That was it. Done. Feels fucking awesome to not have this hanging over me anymore. It's over, it's finally over.

    Tl;Dr - I beat it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Looking around
    Wondering what became
    Of what I once knew

  2. #362
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    Congrats and thanks for bringing us along your adventure!

  3. #363
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    Now follow her doing her route for a day, and email the videos of her repeatedly rolling stop signs to police.

  4. #364
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    Ha nice! For once, the vague description of "stunting" comes in handy for the little guy!

  5. #365
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    You aren't the hero beyond deserves, but you are the hero we need.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darell_n View Post
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    That, and I can't see you being guilty of stunting anymore than vehicular homicide. Parking between 2 vehicles is the shittiest stunt ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePenIsMightier View Post
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    This is the angle you should be going after.
    What you did was very very likely illegal, but it sure as fuck was NOT "Stunting".
    Don't waste time trying to reinvent the TSA regarding Lane splitting or filtering. Say that you were not stunting.
    ^All internet points awarded to T-PiM and DidgeriDarell who solved the problem and predicted teh futurez within the first dozen posts!!

  7. #367
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    Thanks everyone. This has been a long drawn out case due to Covid, full of ups and downs. But it feels nice to have come out on top and to take some Beyonders on an adventure.

    But where does that leave us here? Well, it's not stunting here, but the Judge did not agree with the definition of a lane. So basically, I won the battle but the war still rages on.

    Hopefully you guys were all entertained here lol. I know there was plenty of discussion had over this.

    Would be interesting to see if his ruling ends up on CanLii but I'm kind of doubtful that will happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePenIsMightier View Post
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    ^All internet points awarded to T-PiM and DidgeriDarell who solved the problem and predicted teh futurez within the first dozen posts!!
    Haha, very true. Internet points for you!! I tried giving rep but I need to spread it around first.
    Last edited by 16hypen3sp; 12-07-2020 at 07:32 PM.
    Looking around
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  8. #368
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    Woot. Congrats.

  9. #369
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    Welp, at least you can carry the judgement on you the next time you get cited for stunting.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16hypen3sp View Post
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    Tl;Dr at bottom.

    Alright guys... the moment we've all been waiting for, for so long, has finally arrived.....

    I arrived for the afternoon trial session at 1245 for a 1330 trial start. Was told outside the room that morning matters were still ongoing and to head into a different room to wait. Apparently the system is really backed up due to Covid. I took a seat facing the entry to watch for the witness, expecting them not to show given how messed up this whole thing got and Covid numbers increasing.

    About 10 mins later.... she walked in. How did I know what she looked like? There was a bulletin sent out by our local Catholic school board naming her the Bus Driver of the Year for 2020 back in Feb.

    So with that, I knew things were proceeding.

    Then the court decided to break for lunch around 1340. I carefully watched to see which Judge was presiding. I saw him walk by and felt my chances of winning just get wiped off the map. It was an older fellow who is known around here for being a wee bit biased towards the Crown and against the defense. In that moment, I mentally prepared myself to lose big time. I had no hope, I mean none. Totally defeated and we hadn't even entered the court room yet.

    1440 rolls around... finally it's time to enter. Hand full of us go in and I was the first trial up.

    I expected the cop to be there but he wasn't. I brought that up first thing and the Judge took a look at the ticket. Since the officer only issued the ticket and wasn't party to the event, I was told by the Judge he wasn't required to be there. I dropped it and moved on.

    Crown called the witness. Asked her the usual stuff, but the she kept injecting her own opinion of the maneuver being unsafe. The Crown also said that it was more serious because it was around a bus full of kids. (I think I should have objected to that as irrelevant but I missed my chance). The Judge told her to stop putting her opinion in. They then played the video. Judge confirmed with me prior to the video playing that I've seen it.

    Video played. Very anti-climactic. Lol, literally a 11 second clip.

    That was it from the Crown. Time for me to cross-examine.

    I had prepared a page of questions, starting with the whole safety aspect of the maneuver itself. I was following along with everything I typed out. Got about 3 questions in and the Judge essentially shut me down saying I was talking about things that never happened (like getting rear ended and crushed into the bus). He also wanted to know more about that terminology (crush zone, crumple zone) as he had never heard of those terms before.

    I moved onto the whole lane definition thing. Things got interesting here. I asked the witness to provide her opinion on what a lane is. The Judge interjected saying that the witness shouldn't have to know what the definition is..... this obviously raised my eyebrows a bit. So I asked if she knew what the legal definition of a lane was or if one existed. To my surprise, she said yes.

    So I asked her to describe what the legal definition of lane was and she ended up saying it was where the lane markings were.

    I asked the Judge if I could read the definition to Court. He asked "off what?" I replied with "Use of highway and Rules of the Road Reg Section 1 (t)".

    He flipped open some document, paused for what seemed like forever, and then allowed it.

    I read it to the court. Turned back to the witness and asked if she knew about the specifics of the definition, which she didn't.

    I then went on about the truck being in their own lane, bus in their own lane, and motorcycle in their own lane so why did she have a problem with the motorcycle.... but this then devolved into a full argument session. It wasn't going well and the Crown eventually piped up and said I was entering an argument phase instead of cross-examining. I agreed and then moved onto the stunting part of my questions?

    I asked why her statement read nothing of the sort in terms of being distracted or startled but then, under examination, she felt "distracted or scared" or some nonsense. She didn't have anything to say and I was done so that was it.

    Crown had closing arguments. Basically said witness was distracted and she was driving a bus full of kids. Didn't really have much else to say.

    Closing arguments from me again consisted of safety increase (Judge shut that down again) and then lane definition (which again turned into a full blown argument over what a lane is, with the Judge going back and forth between me and his documents but then getting tired of it and ultimately saying "There's no lane there. You can say it 27 times. There's no lane. The lane is the markings).

    At this point, I'm saying to myself, yah I'm fucked.

    My last argument centered around the term stunting itself. I explained it was a broad term and that the events need to be of substance to declare a person 'distracted or startled'. I did this by using a previous judgement of "stunting" that I got off CanLii that was done in Alberta Court in 2016. I asked the Judge if I could read it to the Court. He agreed but only to the end result. I read it out saying that the Judge ruled that "the conduct complained of must of a compelling nature, such that the effect or consequence of that conduct on the users of the highway is or is likely to be SERIOUS AND SIGNIFICANT." Otherwise, everyday activities would fall within this section.

    That was it for me. I sat back down and prepared for the verdict.

    The verdict: the Judge hummed and hawed for a moment and then said "There isn't enough here for a conviction on stunting. There isn't enough evidence for stunting. Not guilty."

    I was floored. How the hell did I manage to pull that off!?!?!
    Pretty sure it was the final portion of my closing arguments that made the difference, because before that, I was in a bloodbath.

    That was it. Done. Feels fucking awesome to not have this hanging over me anymore. It's over, it's finally over.

    Tl;Dr - I beat it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    There you go. You can basically have my job now.

  11. #371
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    Congrats.. one hell of journey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakalaka View Post
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    There you go. You can basically have my job now.

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    Congrats!!!

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    My favorite part, after 19 pages of the same thing:

    "There's no lane there. You can say it 27 times. There's no lane. The lane is the marking". So no, you don't get to arbitrarily decide where a lane is.

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    Originally posted 12-11-2019


    Quote Originally Posted by Tik-Tok View Post
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    Except it won't fly with the judge IMO. The focus you make with the safety act, "sufficient width to accommodate the passage of a single line of vehicles", is intended for some kind of obstruction in which a line of vehicles has to get by. Otherwise they would have just said "sufficient width to accommodate the passage of a single vehicle". Also a single line-up would be meant to included most vehicles on the road, not a line-up made of bikes only. Also if the judge agreed with your interpretation of the law, he/she would be setting precedent that would allow a full sized pick-up to lane filter between cars, just because there's room to do so.
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    Last edited by Tik-Tok; 12-08-2020 at 10:28 AM.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brent.ff View Post
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    My favorite part, after 19 pages of the same thing:

    "There's no lane there. You can say it 27 times. There's no lane. The lane is the marking". So no, you don't get to arbitrarily decide where a lane is.
    Yup. At least that's what this judge believes, which is exactly what my lawyer warned me about should he be drawn to preside over the case. The judge argued with me over section 15(5) being required to maintain centre of traffic lane on a highway with clearly marked lines on the surface... but that exempts cycles. Judge asked me what a 'cycle' is and I defined it to the court. He agreed and moved on to Section 15(6) occupying space in two lanes except when passing or changing lanes. He believes this was applicable. But the witness had stated in her testimony that the rider had passed between the bus and truck and proceeded to the stop line so I brought that up as meeting the law. But he basically said I can't justify a lane exists there using those terms.

    He was really tired and irritated over what I was arguing. He would interrupt what I was asking the witness or arguing, say something to shut it down in an effort to get me to move on. I would quickly read what I had written down to ask as the next question, try to reword it in my mind so the judge would be satisfied, but then I'd tell myself "fuck it, I'm just going to say it, regardless of the judges reaction." So I just continued on essentially ignoring what the judge was saying lol. Some of the questions I asked were good, and the witness would hesitate to answer or shrug her shoulders but the judge said she had to answer. Especially when I questioned her on actually being distracted. Something along the lines of "You said you noticed the stopped Dodge truck and the motorcycle. Both vehicles at the stop line. How is simply looking at a fellow road user stopped at the stop line for a red light distracting or startling in any way?" I tried to answer to the vagueness of the term stunting itself as best I could think up.

    One thing I wished was a little different... I wanted to pursue this and have some fun doing so. I do love this sort of thing. But I'm not going to lie, I was really rattled/stressed the entire time and didn't have much fun in the process. haha
    Looking around
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    Of what I once knew

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    Quote Originally Posted by 16hypen3sp View Post
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    One thing I wished was a little different... I wanted to pursue this and have some fun doing so. I do love this sort of thing. But I'm not going to lie, I was really rattled/stressed the entire time and didn't have much fun in the process. haha
    Welcome to my whole life and the reason why I sometimes contemplate why I spent 8+ years in school doing this shit. Definitely not always as much fun as they show in the movies and the stress can be killer. lol. And as for questioning, you can get away with a LOT as a self-rep and in kangaroo court (traffic court). Completely different expectations from counsel in other more serious matters.

    You think running that was stressful? I got a 5 week sex assault jury trial coming up next year where a chiro is charged by 11 different complainants. Yes, I often lose sleep and wake up in a sweat thinking about various files. Shit can't be good for you. Haha.
    Last edited by shakalaka; 12-08-2020 at 02:43 PM.

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    My massage therapist (legit one) checked out my junk the other day. Do I have a case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tik-Tok View Post
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    My massage therapist (legit one) checked out my junk the other day. Do I have a case?
    Not if he was only checking it out because you were slapping him with it!

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    He probably just wanted to know if you were too chilly or not. A quick tug on the sack is more efficient than asking your opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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