Predatory loan company Spring Financial and Canada Drives

[Buster]

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Buster, I'm not sure why you're so set on defending these shit stains. Read their website. If you agree with them, great. If you don't, great.
Feels like we are arguing two different things, not sure our respective keyboard warrioring will turn the other over.
https://www.springfinancial.ca/

No, I think we are getting to the crux of our disagreement.

You seem to be arguing that society needs to be able to save people from themselves.

I'm arguing that the cost to that approach is high and negatively impacts society. I prefer to live in a world where two consenting adults are allowed to exchange freely between themselves without governments telling them what they can or cannot do. Freedom of association thing. I'm also arguing that if we start devaluing written contracts by making them pass some sort of warm and fuzzy test AFTER they are signed, then people will start losing faith in signing contracts. That also hurts everyone.

You can't argue for the benefit of having rights and freedoms, but then restrict those freedoms when people are using them in ways you don't like.

[TomcoPDR]

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So say you shut down these high yield loaning “predatory” practices. Now what? These people now have no options to gain some short term liquidity for whatever reason they need it. Would we prefer they turn to crime instead?

They’ll seek from family and friends at zero interest... what’s the worse that could happen.

[killramos]

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They’ll seek from family and friends at zero interest... what’s the worse that could happen.

Sounds exactly like my crime route

[Super_Geo]

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We have legislation for maximum APR on loans, this case is well below that threshold. The existence of a product does not make it inherently “predatory”. Misleading someone into a product that is not a good fit and puts them into a worse situation than they currently are in is what’s predatory.

Even in this thread, so many people have made mention of APR, loans, etc...
This isn't a loan, and comparing it to a loan, using terms that are usually associated with loans, etc, is all part of what makes this a predatory product.

This is a negative interest holding instrument with absurdly high fees on top.
There's no credit risk on their end, risk of default, etc... they aren't giving you any money! They're taking your money, and then at some point they'll give about 1/3 of it.

Oh, and if you miss a 'payment'...

What happens if I miss a payment?
If you miss a payment you will fall behind on your loan. Each missed payment incurs an NSF fee of $30. If you think you are going to miss an upcoming payment please reach out to our Client Care team in advance of your payment date and they can review your options with you.

I can't see this as anything other than predatory as hell...

[ercchry]

Well if you’re not goi to comprehend the posts I’m not going to bother typing them. APR still applies in this case, it’s still a financial product and funds are being exchanged. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on reverse mortgages

[Super_Geo]

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No, I think we are getting to the crux of our disagreement.

You seem to be arguing that society needs to be able to save people from themselves.

Yes. Society does, and has. Can't market cigarettes to kids, have to clearly put warning labels on the packages to adults who already know the cause cancer.
It usually (but not always) revolves around asymmetry of power or knowledge.

To my point above, I can't go around marketing an exotic option structure to a Calgary energy company without disclosing how it might blow up in their face, even though they are a savvy business and they should know better.
And my analog here is: companies shouldn't market a product that is inherently confusing (maybe not to you, me and people in this thread, but even still.... look at all the mentions of loans, APR, etc, in this thread alone... APR? for this thing?!) to a client base that isn't savvy to know what it is.

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I prefer to live in a world where two consenting adults are allowed to exchange freely between themselves without governments telling them what they can or cannot do. Freedom of association thing. I'm also arguing that if we start devaluing written contracts by making them pass some sort of warm and fuzzy test AFTER they are signed, then people will start losing faith in signing contracts. That also hurts everyone.

You can't argue for the benefit of having rights and freedoms, but then restrict those freedoms when people are using them in ways you don't like.

Contracts that are not created on equal footing, where there is a large asymmetry of power where the advantaged side is taking advantage of their counterpart, have been legally challenged countless times before you and I have been around, and I would argue that society comes out stronger for it.

It's why airliners need to quote pricing that includes taxes and fees, and has a 24hr cool off period, etc. I think those are all good rules, and helps the functioning of society, and doesn't impair the capability of the airliners to run their business.

[Buster]

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Even in this thread, so many people have made mention of APR, loans, etc...
This isn't a loan, and comparing it to a loan, using terms that are usually associated with loans, etc, is all part of what makes this a predatory product.

This is a negative interest holding instrument with absurdly high fees on top.
There's no credit risk on their end, risk of default, etc... they aren't giving you any money! They're taking your money, and then at some point they'll give about 1/3 of it.

Oh, and if you miss a 'payment'...


I can't see this as anything other than predatory as hell...

What you are describing isn't a bug, it's a feature. The entire point of the product is that the FI writing the p-note takes on no risk. They are simply reporting a payment stream to the ratings agencies, and collecting a fee for the service. I have no interest in descriptions like "absurd". If you don't like it, start one of these companies up and charge a lower fee.

This is a niche thing designed for a specific purpose. The idiot in the article bought a hammer and complained when it didn't operate like a drill.

In either case, it shouldn't prevent that notion that an adult should have the right to sign a contract, and then be held to that contract.

[Buster]

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Contracts that are not created on equal footing, where there is a large asymmetry of power where the advantaged side is taking advantage of their counterpart, have been legally challenged countless times before you and I have been around, and I would argue that society comes out stronger for it.

A good way to combat asymmetry of information is to put on the contract, on page 1, what you are signing.

As for asymmetry of power - nothing wrong with that, it's how people generate profits. You need something, someone else has it, so you must pay a margin to get it.

[ExtraSlow]

What did the guy in the story THINK he was buying? Most of us have been assuming he was trucked somehow, but was he? Or did he get exactly what he was seeking?

[Super_Geo]

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APR still applies in this case, it’s still a financial product and funds are being exchanged. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on reverse mortgages

Sure, if APR is the right term to use, what is the APR on a product that gets you $1750 at the end of 3 years, during which you've put in $4300?
My point is just that using terms like APR/loans confuses the issue.
Cause you know what ends up with 1750 after putting in 120/m for 3 years? A -73.8% 'savings' account.

[Buster]

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Sure, if APR is the right term to use, what is the APR on a product that gets you $1750 at the end of 3 years, during which you've put in $4300?
My point is just that using terms like APR/loans confuses the issue.
Cause you know what ends up with 1750 after putting in 120/m for 3 years? A -73.8% 'savings' account.

that's a weird way to look at it, but okay.

[ExtraSlow]

Okay, it's not a loan, and it's not a savings account.

[S-FLY]

This whole thread is like trying to argue with a millennial about why they're offended by the color green.

[Xtrema]

So if I read this correctly.... this is just a spin on whole life insurance. Where one cover the cost of life insurance, and the other repair credit scores.

Given the guy wants a loan to engage his AirBnb business, I have less sympathy than those payday loan scams. He just got a very expensive business lesson. It's no different than those infield developer that ran out of credit and had to run to private lenders for higher rate loans.

It's how the market works, the less likely they can collect, the more expensive the loan is.


That said, I'm waiting UCP to reverse NDP's predatory loan law because industry helped out
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...sing-1.5086292

[M.alex]

I don't see the issue or need for mob justice.

If you can't figure out the + and -s associated with a financial transaction that's your own fault.

[ExtraSlow]

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I don't see the issue or need for mob justice.

If you can't figure out the + and -s associated with a financial transaction that's your own fault.

Or if you can't carve out enough time to make this decision somewhere where you can hear the other party clearly AND won't feel rushed.

[Rocket1k78]

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What did the guy in the story THINK he was buying? Most of us have been assuming he was trucked somehow, but was he? Or did he get exactly what he was seeking?

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Or if you can't carve out enough time to make this decision somewhere where you can hear the other party clearly AND won't feel rushed.

No shit! This is 100% the guys fault, you go and sign financial papers without reading what you're signing and then blame you not being able to understand the call because it was noisy on your end?!!?! This is the big problem with our society now, if you dont like what you signed up for even though its super clear and in writing you cry to the media and they will bail you out. Fuckin BS