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    Default Franchisee keeping employees off the books

    This is the "Law" section so I just assumed that the subject of the thread falls under this heading better than "careers".

    I know of a local Franchisee that has no registered employees, but forces her children to work for her and most of the time doesn't even end up paying them anything, when she does pay them she doesn't even pay them close to minimum wage.

    1) Let's say one of her children slipped and fell while working for on the job site and ended up breaking her hip. This person would not be covered by any type of insurance or WCB claim whatsoever, correct?
    I know her children, one of them quite well. Neither of them are even aware of employees rights or WCB or minimum wage (by choice or simple negligence, I don't know, both of her children are over the age of 21).

    I believe she is also using this tactic to land contracts, since she can bid on a contract for much lower than her competition can (because they have registered employees that they pay minimum wage+), and she has no problem undercutting her competition because she just tells her children that the contract didn't pay out enough money for her to be able to pay them anything...

    I asked one of the "employees" (her daughter) why they hadn't been paid that week. They explained to me that there was simply not enough money for them to get paid because the contract didn't pay enough. Correct me if I am wrong here, but TRUE employees of a Franchise get paid FIRST, right? No matter how much the contract paid out, the franchisee is the LAST person to collect a cheque? This is always how I have understood a franchise works, please correct me if I am wrong.

    LAST QUESTION: How would the franchising corporation react if they heard about this? Isn't it kind of damaging to the entire organization as a whole since she would also be effectively undercutting her competition within the corporation (other franchisees of the same company) only because she is essentially using slave labour?



    FOR CLARIFICATION: This is an immigrant family, both of her children have been made to believe that they are employees and that they get paid a fair wage, when most of the time they do not get paid at all. Don't bother asking how any adult, immigrant or not, could actually believe what is going on is normal, this is their mother that "employs" them and has led them to believe that this is the way a franchise works since they were too young to know any better.

    I don't have the heart to explain to either of them that they are being completely exploited by their mother. I came on here to share this situation with you guys to also ask how you would approach the situation, as I care about both of the children and they have been "working" for their mother for over 5 years now, one of them close to 10, and the longer she does this the larger her "unemployment gap" on her resume gets. She has been doing this for her mother since she got out of high school and she has believed that she has been getting paid since then (apparently she owed her mother money for a car that was co-signed for and then written off, so she has been told that her paycheques have been going towards that ~25k loan this entire time, when recently I found out that her mother hasn't paid off a dime on the car).

    This is a really sad situation for me, I know a lot of you are going to scroll through this and post "how could anyone be so stupid", please refrain from leaving those comments here. Its not constructive, it makes me sad, and none of you know the entire situation and if you did you wouldn't leave comments like that because it would make you sad too.

    Thanks guys

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    This is Canada.
    Law is the law.

    Report that shit.

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    Yea thats a tough spot, some points:

    a) the adult kids are under the parents 'control' and dont know any better - ie not child exploitation

    b) they kids are the ones that need to initiate any complaints process (unlikely they will) EDIT - even if this is reported, the adult kids might just state everything is OK

    c) is this obviously illegal to do in AB? The parent is not 'forcing' the adult kids to work, but coercing.

    d) situation is definitely not uncommon in many families and businesses - perhaps not to this extent though

    e) the CRA might be interested to find out?

    f) the parent might be telling the adult kids that they are getting 'paid' by living in the house and eating their food?

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    How old are these kids? Do they live with thier mother?

    - - - Updated - - -

    If the kids don't have an issue with the situation, then maybe it's fine?
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    Oh god, don't get him started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    - - - Updated - - -

    If the kids don't have an issue with the situation, then maybe it's fine?
    It's not really ok for an employee to be taken advantage of because they don't know their rights.

    If they did know, and were still ok with it, then it would be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tik-Tok View Post
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    It's not really ok for an employee to be taken advantage of because they don't know their rights.

    If they did know, and were still ok with it, then it would be fine.
    Yes, that's what I was trying to say. You said it better.
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    Oh god, don't get him started.

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    Edit: I see those so-called "kids" are over 21. I will refer to them as adults from now on.

    OP, it seems like you can do one of three things
    1) keep you nose out of it.
    2) educate these adults about thier rights and let them make thier own choices.
    3) stir shit up with the franchise corporation, and various government agencies.

    I reccomend against #3, because harming this family financially doesn't seem like it will help your friends.

    Have you talked to these adults to find out how they feel about it? Maybe they feel like this is their best method for supporting thier parent? Maybe they are working for the hope for future valuable equity?

    Lots of startup companies operate on a version of this where early employees have an ownership stake and are not paid fairly for hours worked.
    Quote Originally Posted by schurchill39 View Post
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    Oh god, don't get him started.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelations View Post
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    Yea thats a tough spot, some points:

    a) the adult kids are under the parents 'control' and dont know any better - ie not child exploitation

    b) they kids are the ones that need to initiate any complaints process (unlikely they will) EDIT - even if this is reported, the adult kids might just state everything is OK

    c) is this obviously illegal to do in AB? The parent is not 'forcing' the adult kids to work, but coercing.

    d) situation is definitely not uncommon in many families and businesses - perhaps not to this extent though

    e) the CRA might be interested to find out?

    f) the parent might be telling the adult kids that they are getting 'paid' by living in the house and eating their food?
    Yes, the adults live with their mother, and she does try and tell them that apart of their wages is going towards living in the house and eating her food... BUT these people are working FULL-TIME. I'm talking 45-50 hours/week MINIMUM. At minimum wage they would be making more than what rent/utilities/food costs them per month in less than a week.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    Edit: I see those so-called "kids" are over 21. I will refer to them as adults from now on.

    OP, it seems like you can do one of three things
    1) keep you nose out of it.
    2) educate these adults about thier rights and let them make thier own choices.
    3) stir shit up with the franchise corporation, and various government agencies.

    I reccomend against #3, because harming this family financially doesn't seem like it will help your friends.

    Have you talked to these adults to find out how they feel about it? Maybe they feel like this is their best method for supporting thier parent? Maybe they are working for the hope for future valuable equity?

    Lots of startup companies operate on a version of this where early employees have an ownership stake and are not paid fairly for hours worked.
    I am not interested in harming the family financially.

    I wish I could explain this in more detail, but they are essentially being forced to work... they both want to get a real job somewhere else, but as soon as they even mention something like that their mother has already started throwing their belongings onto the lawn. They both have absolutely nothing, no work experience, and they are both in debt, so the mother knows that she essentially has them trapped.

    The situation is honestly eerily similar to the slaves from india they have working for $1.36/day in Dubai. These two adults were made promises of a certain wage (when they were kids), they committed far enough that she has forced them into debt, and now they can't get help from anyone because they are in debt and the minute they look for help anywhere or even mention any other employment they are abused (physically and verbally) and immediately homeless.

    I have explained their rights to them. They are so scared of their mother that they either choose to not listen to me or they do listen to me and they sit and cry but they won't do anything about it.

    It has come to the point that I feel It is my responsibility to report her... If I don't, these adults are going to get further and further into debt while their mother profits off of their labour and pays her mortgage/car payments/loans and buys herself more wigs.

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    Well, you have more information than us, and you feel you have to report her. So I suppose you should then.

    Alberta employment standards tips and complaints: https://www.alberta.ca/employment-st...s-appeals.aspx

    If there's physical abuse call the CPS non-emergency line and they can assist you with resources and options. 403-264-1234.

    Or you can call the distress centre, who has experience with situations like this, and can connect you with the appropriate resources.

    Good luck man.
    Quote Originally Posted by schurchill39 View Post
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    Its a tough spot for the adult kids - they obviously need to grow up and move out. Apply for work without telling their mom and just move in together somewhere.

    However in many cultures this could be construed as a **huge** family insult and they might get shit from extended family as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CMW403 View Post
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    It has come to the point that I feel It is my responsibility to report her... If I don't, these adults are going to get further and further into debt while their mother profits off of their labour and pays her mortgage/car payments/loans and buys herself more wigs.
    Report her for what? She has fully functioning adults (ie. not mentally retarded) who choose to work for her, and can choose to leave at anytime. Citizens of Canada assumption as well (no threat of deportation).

    You have already made them aware of their options and they have listened and rejected these options.

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    Quote Originally Posted by revelations View Post
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    Its a tough spot for the adult kids - they obviously need to grow up and move out. Apply for work without telling their mom and just move in together somewhere.

    However in many cultures this could be construed as a **huge** family insult and they might get shit from extended family as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Report her for what? She has fully functioning adults (ie. not mentally retarded) who choose to work for her, and can choose to leave at anytime. Citizens of Canada assumption as well (no threat of deportation).

    You have already made them aware of their options and they have listened and rejected these options.
    Well first of all, pretty sure the CRA would be interested to hear about it would they not?

    Also pretty sure that the company the franchise is under would be very interested. The franchise is essentially enabling her to take advantage of her kids...
    She undercuts her competition to get contracts, and then she uses labourers that are completely off the books to satisfy said contract. I believe that in itself is illegal is it not?

    The kids have been made to believe that they are employees of the franchise, by default therefore made to believe that they are also employees of the company itself, when in reality the company doesn't even know they exist. They think that she is doing the work of four people herself...

    isn't she also bypassing a fuckload of taxation by doing this?

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    An example of "proximity bias" (is that at thing?), perhaps?

    After all, we are all posting here using devices and/or computer components that were manufactured by people with far worse working and living conditions than these people.

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    It's tough times for a lot of families due to the recession. Maybe the mom can barely make ends meet so she has to get her kids to help her out. Maybe the kids aren't able to obtain jobs outside of the family business, and if they were to leave that might leave the mom unable to do all the work on her contracts. Say the shoe was on the other foot, and you were a kid in the family trying to help keep things afloat. Do you say to heck with this I'm outta here? Go on social services or fend for yourselves, Mom and siblings? Where's the dad? Single mom? Sometimes family obligations outweigh the needs of the few?

    Or is this a case of Mom needs money to fund her $2 mill mansion and fleet of BMW's, Merc's, and Lexus's? Hard to say without knowing the situation completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HHBL View Post
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    It's tough times for a lot of families due to the recession. Maybe the mom can barely make ends meet so she has to get her kids to help her out. Maybe the kids aren't able to obtain jobs outside of the family business, and if they were to leave that might leave the mom unable to do all the work on her contracts. Say the shoe was on the other foot, and you were a kid in the family trying to help keep things afloat. Do you say to heck with this I'm outta here? Go on social services or fend for yourselves, Mom and siblings? Where's the dad? Single mom? Sometimes family obligations outweigh the needs of the few?

    Or is this a case of Mom needs money to fund her $2 mill mansion and fleet of BMW's, Merc's, and Lexus's? Hard to say without knowing the situation completely.
    This.

    Tough situation. Maybe confronting her and threaten to report her may be a better option right now. If she loses the business and it's the family's only source of income you could be doing more harm than good.

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    Sounds brown as fuck to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HHBL View Post
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    It's tough times for a lot of families due to the recession. Maybe the mom can barely make ends meet so she has to get her kids to help her out. Maybe the kids aren't able to obtain jobs outside of the family business, and if they were to leave that might leave the mom unable to do all the work on her contracts. Say the shoe was on the other foot, and you were a kid in the family trying to help keep things afloat. Do you say to heck with this I'm outta here? Go on social services or fend for yourselves, Mom and siblings? Where's the dad? Single mom? Sometimes family obligations outweigh the needs of the few?

    Or is this a case of Mom needs money to fund her $2 mill mansion and fleet of BMW's, Merc's, and Lexus's? Hard to say without knowing the situation completely.
    I know the situation completely, most of the answers to your questions are above, but i will repeat them.
    The mom is using her kids money to fund her wig/fur/jewelry collection.
    I have helped both of her kids land a job, like I said, the moment she found out about that she called the police and almost had them trespassed.
    She has them psychologically trapped. Especially the daughter, since her mother has been telling her that her wages were being garnished to pay for the vehicle that her mother co-signed on and she totalled. This has been going on for 8 years now, and not one payment has been made on that loan. You guys don't seem to understand, she is literally scamming her kids, and she has them so psychologically bullied that they can't help themselves. The daughter sits and cries to me when I inform her of her rights and that this whole situation is VERY wrong, I have helped her and her brother a million times in the past. (they lived with me on and off according to her kicking them out for getting a job on and off).

    Quote Originally Posted by freshvibes View Post
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    This.

    Tough situation. Maybe confronting her and threaten to report her may be a better option right now. If she loses the business and it's the family's only source of income you could be doing more harm than good.
    I guess I could try... but naturally she hates my guts because I am the one that takes her kids in every time she kicks them out. I am the one that picks them up when she abuses them. If i tried to confront her about it I think she would do her regular screaming, yelling and arm waving and I wouldn't get through at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rx7boi View Post
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    Sounds brown as fuck to me.
    Think darker.

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    @CMW403 , don't bother trying to convince us. Tell someone who can do something. The police, Alberta employment standards, and the distress centre are all good resources.
    Quote Originally Posted by schurchill39 View Post
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    Oh god, don't get him started.

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    Tough call. Not everyone can live the white bread lifestyle. Women tend to make half of what men do, racial minorities even less. To exacerbate, loans to get established are basically non-existant. Complain, and burn all family ties.

    Take a job as a checkout clerk for Galen Weston, and as a single income - still probably won't make enough to pay the bills.

    Yes, $ bias can be strong. As a computer technician, if you ever have to call Cisco in California, they will charge you higher than lawyer rates just to diagnose a problem - over the phone. Because they have to, because they have pay for their $6,000 per month rent one bedroom hovel in SoCal and afford to eat a pizza that takes two hours to deliver.

    What is middle class? If you ask our government, somewhere under $140,000 income per year - which to me is just plain silly. Trump - "A small loan of a million dollars". And yet, I still own a $50 tablet that some guy probably got paid under $2 per hour to produce.

    To many white cultures "independence" is important. To many Asian cultures "family" is important. What I find odd, is that white people tend to "compensate for effort". If you jump up and down really hard to try and get a carrot on a string, even if you don't get it - the white guy will still pay you dollars for the effort (and obligatory youtube video) Asians are almost never compensate for simple effort, even if results are good - you can still be penalized. Fine example: Asian dude takes four years of aerospace engineering, only for NASA to say that its illegal to hire Asians (or even let them have lunch in the cafeteria), Asian guy shrugs shoulders because he is used to being penalized for effort.

    Which is why, if you want easy dollar compensation for being eight place out of eight competitors - I'm going to say this blunt: Don't work for the asian or brown boss, unless you actually can get results done in an efficient and productive manner.

    White bosses can declare bankruptcy without real negative physical consequences - this is what I believe is a key factor, all the way up to President of the United States.
    Last edited by ZenOps; 12-25-2019 at 05:34 AM.
    SN11 - Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMW403 View Post
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    I guess I could try... but naturally she hates my guts because I am the one that takes her kids in every time she kicks them out. I am the one that picks them up when she abuses them. If i tried to confront her about it I think she would do her regular screaming, yelling and arm waving and I wouldn't get through at all.
    This is where you back off... And involve professional help.

    Start with 211 and psychological help for the kids. Until they grow a backbone and get shown the way it's you vs her. You'll never win - the damage needs to start being fixed before the healing and fixing starts.

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    BTW: What I always found crazy was the idea that you could leave a combustion car with a mechanic of choice, and for as long as he attempted to diagnose and fix it to the best of his/her ability they would be compensated for it, even it was only fixed in a minimal fashion or not at all. The attempt to fix is what is compensated.

    Not too sound too racist: If you had a brown boss, and it did not get fixed - not only would you not get paid, you would get slapped upside the back of the head. And to be honest, I kind of respect it (but also understand how it does not fit with the current western lifestyle)

    Seriously, I totally missed that day they taught that in school, because there have only been two times in my life where I was compensated for simply "trying", and several times where I was penalized for being productive, efficient and correct (not even always by the direct employer, but occasionally by the competitor of a direct employer) Build a pitchfork for the Queen of England, get stabbed by the King of France for being really good at your particular pitchfork producing ability, lol.

    I get the feeling Buzz Aldrin is finally starting to feel and see this side of the equation, Buzz now complaining about how he was not paid enough.

    White women live in a different world than I know, positive compensation for effort almost seems like its a basic human right somehow. Its like asking for a rainbow unicorn that poops chocolate.
    Last edited by ZenOps; 12-25-2019 at 05:54 AM.
    SN11 - Nope.

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