Pilot shortage? Is this real?

[95EagleAWD]

I pretty much agree with everything that Maxx has said in this thread.

Except the Colgen Air crash. That crew WAS experienced. They were just tired as hell and fucked up. The industry needs real fatigue rules. (As a sit here on a split shift.)

Also, fwiw, I’ve flown with instructors that have a couple thousands hours that were worse pilots than I was at 500. Instructing seems to be the quickest way to the regionals, but it makes some shitty pilots. They always fly in nice weather, they fly to the same airports, they don’t do anything different.

I’ve been in the Bush for years. I’ve flown “VFR” on days where I probably shouldn’t. If you want real experience, that’s how you get it.

Now I’m in a decent airplane where I don’t have to do that anymore and I’m applying everywhere to get out.

[ExtraSlow]

So, I think the consensus is that there is NO SHORTAGE of newly trained pilots and no need for government to increase availability of training to new pilots.

Significant problems exist in the industry, but it has nothing to do with training more pilots.

[Tik-Tok]

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So, I think the consensus is that there is NO SHORTAGE of newly trained pilots and no need for government to increase availability of training to new pilots.

Significant problems exist in the industry, but it has nothing to do with training more pilots.

Pretty much. The problem is actually purely capitalist supply/demand one. They don't pay enough (in the beginning) for
the responsibility/workload, so people leave, but companies refuse to increase wages to keep them.

This has been a problem of its own making for decades.

[revelations]

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Pretty much. The problem is actually purely capitalist supply/demand one. They don't pay enough (in the beginning) for
the responsibility/workload, so people leave, but companies refuse to increase wages to keep them.

This has been a problem of its own making for decades.

I know some of the American regionals started at 10,000$ a year about a decade ago (about the time of the Colgan Air debacle). They have definitely raised their salaries since - likely to do with the 1500hr min.

[95EagleAWD]

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I know some of the American regionals started at 10,000$ a year about a decade ago (about the time of the Colgan Air debacle). They have definitely raised their salaries since - likely to do with the 1500hr min.

Yes, I’d credit the 1500 hour rule for raising wages in the USA.

[ExtraSlow]

I'd say the biggest problem is TOO MANY people getting trained when the pay is so low. If people considering this career just went and learned to be welders or HVAC techs, the problem would be solved within five years.

[Misterman]

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The regionals are all unionized too.

Honestly, I blame the travelling public and the airlines equally. The public wants more for less, and they’ll cry foul over airlines charging $600 for a ticket to Toronto. This is why LCC’s like Flair, sunwing, and that pink abortion Swoop exist. They all drive the industry down lower and lower, and the passengers still want it cheaper. I swear, people would willingly get on an airplane with a less experienced crew if it meant they could save $15. People will jump on the MAX when it’s back, mark my words, because they want what’s cheapest. That’s all. It’s insane how far people will go to save a minuscule amount of money. I’ve seen it. I actually had one passenger accuse me of “making too much money” and that was the reason her ticket was so expensive. Can you believe that? I’ve been flying for 19 years now and I’ve never seen the industry this bad. It’s gonna get worse before it gets better too. It’s going to take a Colgan-esque accident in Canada to make changes. It’s the sad truth, but look at the MAX debacle. Nobody does anything until people die.

I certainly don't blame any staff for the cost of ticket prices. It is pure corporate greed and nothing else. When a company like Air Canada, that provides a worse flying experience than the pink abortion you mentioned, but posts profits of a billion dollars in a quarter while we still pay 600$ for a base fare ticket. You're right, the industry is fucked. I actually wondered at first how Swoop was offering flights to London Ontario for 59$. But then I looked up airline revenue and wondered no more.

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2019...r-2019-Results

[Misterman]

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I pretty much agree with everything that Maxx has said in this thread.

Except the Colgen Air crash. That crew WAS experienced. They were just tired as hell and fucked up. The industry needs real fatigue rules. (As a sit here on a split shift.)

Also, fwiw, I’ve flown with instructors that have a couple thousands hours that were worse pilots than I was at 500. Instructing seems to be the quickest way to the regionals, but it makes some shitty pilots. They always fly in nice weather, they fly to the same airports, they don’t do anything different.

I’ve been in the Bush for years. I’ve flown “VFR” on days where I probably shouldn’t. If you want real experience, that’s how you get it.

Now I’m in a decent airplane where I don’t have to do that anymore and I’m applying everywhere to get out.

This is a problem of any industry. Although I'd consider it more important of a problem in the airline industry. Who cares if someone has 10 million hours of experience if they have never flown in some crazy weather, landed in heavy crosswind or short runways, or whatever other kinds of high stress situations that come with being a pilot? Just like a "Journeyman" mechanic that did all his/her hours in an oil change bay, isn't going to be much of a mechanic when they are actually faced with troubleshooting an issue or figuring something out.

[Buster]

It's simple. Open up the Canadian domestic air industry to competition

[95EagleAWD]

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It's simple. Open up the Canadian domestic air industry to competition

Simple for who?

Pilots or passengers?

- - - Updated - - -

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I certainly don't blame any staff for the cost of ticket prices. It is pure corporate greed and nothing else. When a company like Air Canada, that provides a worse flying experience than the pink abortion you mentioned, but posts profits of a billion dollars in a quarter while we still pay 600$ for a base fare ticket. You're right, the industry is fucked. I actually wondered at first how Swoop was offering flights to London Ontario for 59$. But then I looked up airline revenue and wondered no more.

https://aircanada.mediaroom.com/2019...r-2019-Results

Also, Swoop is probably doing that because they don’t make money either. They piggy back off their parent, they use WJ airframes, and they almost used mainline pilots before the union stepped in and stopped that.

Swoop is the worst of the worst right now.

[Misterman]

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Also, Swoop is probably doing that because they don’t make money either. They piggy back off their parent, they use WJ airframes, and they almost used mainline pilots before the union stepped in and stopped that.

Swoop is the worst of the worst right now.

That was my original assumption, is that they amalgamated finances with WestJet to drop Westjets overall average profit per flight, but make more revenue overall by selling so much volume. But again, looking at the finances I don't believe that needs to be the case. If you cut your ticket prices by a factor of 10, then your revenue will be cut by about the same. With WJ being in the profit range of 300mil, something like Swoop should be in the 30mil range if they were operating as many flights(which they aren't, just making a comparison). As with any new business there is growing challenges and they took a bit of a hit on revenue overall as WJ floats things till the Swoop brand is established.

What is this worst of worst you speak of? For passengers, employees, or the company? From a passenger perspective it definitely sucks that you are always flying with Wal-Mart trailer park mouth breathing slope shouldered retards all the time. I've never seen so many issues with people being able to quickly slide their carry on overhead and get in their damn seat. Or so many ignorant cunts running from the back to the front as soon as the seat belt sign goes off, trying to get ahead of the line to de-board.

But for the price it is worth the hassle. Getting much better seating than Air Canada, and the only thing you miss out on is a cheap bag of pretzels and a glass of water. I hope they're here to stay or at least upset the status quo. If the parent company is already making 300mil a year, it means they're over charging for their service. Even getting royally fucked by the Max8 grounding, and floating Swoop in the same year, they still posted 90mill profit. It's just another illegally price fixed industry that we turn a blind eye to.

[revelations]

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It's simple. Open up the Canadian domestic air industry to competition

Quebec would be pissed. Not going to happen.

[Maxx Mazda]

@Misterman I honesty can’t believe what I’m hearing... You ARE one of the people who think that a ticket 6000Km across the country should only cost $60. Your comment that airlines like Swoop “make more by selling more volume” (of cheaper seats) is completely out of touch with reality. Canada does not have the population to support any sort of “high volume” air travel. Much less on podunk routes like Abbotsford to London Ontario. Do you know why they don’t fly into Pearson or YVR? Because airports like those cost money, and the mouth breathers would rather make 6 connections and take 12 hour layovers to save $30. Good luck connecting to, I dunno, anywhere out of those airports. And when they cancel your flight or delay it 3-4 days (Swoop is notorious for this) good luck getting any sort of compensation.

You get what you pay for. Air travel is no different, and in fact is an excellent example of this.

[95EagleAWD]

I dunno where you even connect with from Hamilton. You have to take a train into the city. Hamilton is CargoJet lol.

I’ve seen Swoop and Transat at YHM, and they’re going to Punta Cana or something. Transat at least does that out of YYZ as well.

Swoop is trash. For the passengers you will eventually get stuck, or have flights cancelled and for the staff. The pilots make dogshit and they don’t have flow to WJ.

But I bet you they’re all bouncing to AC as soon as they can.

[Maxx Mazda]

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I dunno where you even connect with from Hamilton. You have to take a train into the city. Hamilton is CargoJet lol.

I’ve seen Swoop and Transat at YHM, and they’re going to Punta Cana or something. Transat at least does that out of YYZ as well.

Swoop is trash. For the passengers you will eventually get stuck, or have flights cancelled and for the staff. The pilots make dogshit and they don’t have flow to WJ.

But I bet you they’re all bouncing to AC as soon as they can.

We’ve hired precisely THREE pilots from Swoop in the last year, and one of them was let go because he couldn’t pass training... on the 737... an aircraft he’d already been flying.

[revelations]

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We’ve hired precisely THREE pilots from Swoop in the last year, and one of them was let go because he couldn’t pass training... on the 737... an aircraft he’d already been flying.

Let me guess - lack of manual flying skills?

EDIT

Another fume event from an A320. FO passed out but Capt. luckily put on his mask in time.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d189839&opt=0

This is aviation - nothing will be done until there is a hull loss. Tombstone engineering.

The cost to do anything to protect the health of the crew and pax is obviously too great.

[Misterman]

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@Misterman I honesty can’t believe what I’m hearing... You ARE one of the people who think that a ticket 6000Km across the country should only cost $60.

No, I'm not. But should they be 600$? Probably not. I even outlined the financials.

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Your comment that airlines like Swoop “make more by selling more volume” (of cheaper seats) is completely out of touch with reality.

Good thing I didn't say that then. But what the heck, pretend is fun.

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Canada does not have the population to support any sort of “high volume” air travel. Much less on podunk routes like Abbotsford to London Ontario. Do you know why they don’t fly into Pearson or YVR? Because airports like those cost money, and the mouth breathers would rather make 6 connections and take 12 hour layovers to save $30. Good luck connecting to, I dunno, anywhere out of those airports. And when they cancel your flight or delay it 3-4 days (Swoop is notorious for this) good luck getting any sort of compensation.

I guess that's the risk people take for a bargain basement discount. Personally I only use it because I don't have to take an unnecessary layover in Toronto, since the flight goes direct to where I need to go. Plus the flight time is great, and most importantly it isn't AC. But I think you're a little out of touch with what Swoop is doing. They are servicing direct flights out of airports that don't normally have direct flights and scooping all the customers that normally have to make connections in big airports to get anywhere.

Not sure what the population supporting high volume travel has to do with anything? It's very simple, AC makes a billion dollars per quarter, why the fuck does it still cost 600$ to fly one way to Toronto? Or 200$ one way from YXU to YYZ?

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You get what you pay for. Air travel is no different, and in fact is an excellent example of this.

Ok, and I'm not saying you're wrong. I gave you a customers perspective, and asked for the perspective of someone in the industry with behind the scenes insight. The only thing I've heard you mention is about delayed or canceled flights. Which petty much sums up every AC flight ironically, and they are a carrier you have to spend more with.

[Maxx Mazda]

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Let me guess - lack of manual flying skills?

EDIT

Another fume event from an A320. FO passed out but Capt. luckily put on his mask in time.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d189839&opt=0

This is aviation - nothing will be done until there is a hull loss. Tombstone engineering.

The cost to do anything to protect the health of the crew and pax is obviously too great.

Can’t speak as to the specifics as I don’t know them, but he was given several additional simulator sessions on top of the standard training syllabus, and was still washed out.

[95EagleAWD]

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We’ve hired precisely THREE pilots from Swoop in the last year, and one of them was let go because he couldn’t pass training... on the 737... an aircraft he’d already been flying.

Hah guess I should’ve said WANTING to bounce to AC as soon as they can.

I’ve got a couple of friends at Swoop. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes there.

Meanwhile, my resumes are going to Jazz, Porter, Canadian North, and Air North.

[03ozwhip]

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Hah guess I should’ve said WANTING to bounce to AC as soon as they can.

I’ve got a couple of friends at Swoop. It’ll be interesting to see how it goes there.

Meanwhile, my resumes are going to Jazz, Porter, Canadian North, and Air North.

I dont have much to add, but I fly Canadian North all the time and while the flight experience is always really good, the delays out of that place are a fucking nightmare.

So many flights I've taken are a minimum of an hour late flying back to calgary with a few being 4 hours late. There is always a maintenance issue.

The last flight I took home this past december was a milk run to Edmonton and then calgary. The fucking windshield was blown out, they apparently taped it(dont quote me as it was dark and couldnt see it) and they could only fly to calgary because that was the only way it was safe to fly...

There are just always issues with them. Garbage old planes or what?