Novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV/COVID-19)

[JRSC00LUDE]

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Have family there, sister in law had a bout with C19 (amazingly enough living a normal life now)

What on earth is "amazingly enough" about that? I know 10 people who have had covid, 2 of which over 60, and none of them actually got sick in any meaningful way. Major illness/injury isn't the norm.

[FraserB]

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Do the police need a warrant to enter a building where the public is allowed to enter? Would they need a warrant if they could observe people breaking the health measures?

It's still a private building. The public may have an implied invitation to enter, but they can still be told to leave or refused entry. I doubt that thinking that there MIGHT be someone in the building who MIGHT break a health order would meet the level required to enter without permission.

[sabad66]

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It's still a private building. The public may have an implied invitation to enter, but they can still be told to leave or refused entry. I doubt that thinking that there MIGHT be someone in the building who MIGHT break a health order would meet the level required to enter without permission.

its gotta be pretty easy to come up with valid cause for something like a church. That church looks pretty small so maybe 100 ppl max at full capacity. Then at 25% capacity cuz of the HO, that means 25 people max in there. Sit outside and watch the entrances and as soon as more than 25 people go in, they have legit cause to enter for breaking the health order.

[killramos]

Or. Find something better to do.

[FraserB]

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its gotta be pretty easy to come up with valid cause for something like a church. That church looks pretty small so maybe 100 ppl max at full capacity. Then at 25% capacity cuz of the HO, that means 25 people max in there. Sit outside and watch the entrances and as soon as more than 25 people go in, they have legit cause to enter for breaking the health order.

I doubt that it would meet the bar of preventing an offense that would cause immediate injury or protecting the life and safety of an occupant in danger. It certainly isn't a case of hot pursuit and I doubt the police could make a case for believing that the churchgoers are in the midst of destroying evidence.

AHS and the police can go and appear in front of a judge and get a warrant if the risk of having "too many" people inside a church is serious enough to warrant three different agencies responding and needing access over the refusal of the owner. No need to toss the Charter aside or use the process of fighting charges as the punishment.

[sabad66]

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I doubt that it would meet the bar of preventing an offense that would cause immediate injury or protecting the life and safety of an occupant in danger. It certainly isn't a case of hot pursuit and I doubt the police could make a case for believing that the churchgoers are in the midst of destroying evidence.

AHS and the police can go and appear in front of a judge and get a warrant if the risk of having "too many" people inside a church is serious enough to warrant three different agencies responding and needing access over the refusal of the owner. No need to toss the Charter aside or use the process of fighting charges as the punishment.

Fair enough. I don’t know the details of laws for entering premises without warrants so maybe it is a violation of Charter either way. My point was there is an obvious easy way to have real numbers to justify it vs just a hunch that he MIGHT be breaking the rules. (Although even a hunch when you’re dealing with this guy is probably going to be correct)

[duaner]

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It's still a private building. The public may have an implied invitation to enter, but they can still be told to leave or refused entry. I doubt that thinking that there MIGHT be someone in the building who MIGHT break a health order would meet the level required to enter without permission.

Sure, but do the police need a warrant, if they are just entering a building to observe, or if they have reasonable grounds for doing so? Does AHS need a warrant? Can the police not escort AHS for safety reasons without a warrant? Why do the police need permission and the general public don't? It's not like they're going to be going through files and confiscating property. If a church is asking the police to leave, then the church is doing something they know they should not be doing.

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Or. Find something better to do.

Such as?

[duaner]

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What on earth is "amazingly enough" about that? I know 10 people who have had covid, 2 of which over 60, and none of them actually got sick in any meaningful way. Major illness/injury isn't the norm.

I only know two people who have had COVID--both in early to mid 20s, one of them is going on 5 months, the other 2 months. From my perspective, it is "amazingly enough." It's all anecdotal.

[killramos]

Dunno. I always hear Calgary law enforcement is terribly understaffed, maybe start there?

[ExtraSlow]

Maybe they entered that church as part of recruitment activities. Win win.

[FraserB]

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Sure, but do the police need a warrant, if they are just entering a building to observe, or if they have reasonable grounds for doing so? Does AHS need a warrant? Can the police not escort AHS for safety reasons without a warrant? Why do the police need permission and the general public don't? It's not like they're going to be going through files and confiscating property. If a church is asking the police to leave, then the church is doing something they know they should not be doing.

It's a private building, even if the implied invitation to enter exists, the police need permission of the owner, a warrant or exigent circumstances need to exist. They don't have some inherent right to enter private buildings and remain after being told to leave just so they can "observe". It's like a cop showing up to your door and saying that he's going to come inside and look around, just in case. And if you ask him to leave, he's going to stay, because he's just observing (not rooting through your desk) and you must be doing something wrong if you don't want him there.

There should be strict limits on the ability of the police to enter private buildings without consent or remain if consent has been withdrawn. There should also be severe consequences if it's found that the police haven't abided by those limits, not just the dropping of charges related to the infringement.

[Buster]

Maybe they wanted to find Jesus?

[duaner]

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Dunno. I always hear Calgary law enforcement is terribly understaffed, maybe start there?

Not sure what that has to do with finding something better to do.

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It's a private building, even if the implied invitation to enter exists, the police need permission of the owner, a warrant or exigent circumstances need to exist. They don't have some inherent right to enter private buildings and remain after being told to leave just so they can "observe". It's like a cop showing up to your door and saying that he's going to come inside and look around, just in case. And if you ask him to leave, he's going to stay, because he's just observing (not rooting through your desk) and you must be doing something wrong if you don't want him there.

There should be strict limits on the ability of the police to enter private buildings without consent or remain if consent has been withdrawn. There should also be severe consequences if it's found that the police haven't abided by those limits, not just the dropping of charges related to the infringement.

But the two aren't the same. For a private residence, there is no right for anyone to enter except the owner/resident; it isn't open for any member of the public. The owner/tenant of a building that is open to the public, even though it may be privately owned, can certainly ask people, including the police, to leave, but I don't see how that means that police need a warrant or permission to enter in the first place. What is the difference between police entering Tim's and entering a church? And, again, does AHS not have the right to enter a building without permission, much like (I suspect) a food inspector can? And can AHS not also ask the police for assistance if there is some fear of harassment or retaliation by the public inside of that building?

If the police entered my church, I wouldn't ask them to leave but would offer them a seat. What that pastor did was wrong, biblically speaking. That is more my concern than the actions of the police.

[JRSC00LUDE]

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Maybe they wanted to find Jesus?

No, they were looking for the eggs.

[ExtraSlow]

Police can enforce traffic laws in private parking lots that are "normally accessible" to the public.

[killramos]

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Not sure what that has to do with finding something better to do.

.

Police spending time doing dumb shit they don’t need to do. Instead of doing that, go do some of the things they claim they don’t otherwise have staff to do.

I can see how connecting simple dots is difficult for someone who thinks a magic man in the sky controls the universe.

[duaner]

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Police spending time doing dumb shit they don’t need to do. Instead of doing that, go do some of the things they claim they don’t otherwise have staff to do.

I can see how connecting simple dots is difficult for someone who thinks a magic man in the sky controls the universe.

So, enforcing bylaws that are meant to help put an end to the pandemic isn't a good use of time? Is that what you're saying? What if an outbreak occurs at a church that is breaking the rules? Would you then complain that the police should have been enforcing the rules, or would you just say that it's too bad the police had better things to do? The lack of enforcement is probably the biggest reason this thing is still dragging on.

[TurboMedic]

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Getting close to 50% with at least one dose I think

Plus an 10% original infection rate

edit: I guess I should put numbers to it.......13mil of 29 mil vaccinated (some 2 shots), plus 2.8mil infection rate, so theoretically 16mil with some form of antibodies

Compared to AB with half a mil? Maybe close to 600K of 4.3 mil with 100K double dosed plus 153K cases.

[killramos]

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So, enforcing bylaws that are meant to help put an end to the pandemic isn't a good use of time? Is that what you're saying? What if an outbreak occurs at a church that is breaking the rules? Would you then complain that the police should have been enforcing the rules, or would you just say that it's too bad the police had better things to do? The lack of enforcement is probably the biggest reason this thing is still dragging on.

They aren’t enforcing anything. I don’t see why wagging the finger at an individual church is having any semblance of an impact.

So yea, I would say the police have better things to do than enforce bylaws.

[Tik-Tok]

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Maybe they wanted to find Jesus?

Fucking Pontius Pilate still trying to find zombie Jesus after all these years.