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Direct sales vs dealerships, opinion? - Page 3 - Beyond.ca - Car Forums

View Poll Results: Which do you support?

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  • Free direct sales from manufacturers to customers without dealerships?

    23 60.53%
  • Protecting dealerships as the primary / only method of vehicle sales.

    2 5.26%
  • Some kind of hybrid solution?

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Thread: Direct sales vs dealerships, opinion?

  1. #41
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    basically, if the new car department can break even for the month, it has been a decent month. never in a million years would they see a 25% (HAHAHAHAHA!!!!) profit!
    "Make Canada a better place, punch a Canuck fan in the face" - Jim Rome

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOAB View Post
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    You're the type of customer I'm talking about. "they wouldn't budge on their stupid fee or price so they are con artists!"

    I wasn't defending it, I'm just stating what customers say. IMO, it should be an OTD price on all cars, take it or leave it but customers have shown that they don't want that so dealers need to try and recoupe some money when they sell the car to the customer at or below cost.

    you guys act like dealers make money hand over fist and rape every customer for every red penny that they have and that is just not the case.
    I know a few business office folk who earn a quarter million peddling 3m and warranties. ya, you can fuck off on the doc fee.

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    Sounds like getting out of selling new cars and just contracting with the manufacturer to provide service would be a dream proposition for a dealer.

    They should all be flocking to sign up for direct sales and out of that money losing venture that selling new cars is getting them.
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    fact.
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    last I checked new car sales only account for around 25% of the profit.
    I dislike greasy dealers like anyone would but man...
    Gotta get your facts straight. So many things in this statement that is cringey. I mean, I wonder what dealers must think of you with that sense of entitlement thinking new car sales "only" account for 25% of the profit, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOAB View Post
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    trade-ins don't go into for inspection until after the deal is done.

    sure, dealers can manage their inventory better but alot of the time, manufacturers just send them a bunch of cars that are optioned out that nobody wants. bad colours, bad option packages, unpopular models and the dealer has to try and sell them.

    I'm not saying that dealers are forced to accept bullshit offers from customers. I'm saying that those same customers get their offers rejected and are pissed that the dealers are just trying to "rip them off" and low ball them on their shitty 2004 Honda civic that is worthless to the dealer. they shouldn't be "allowed to charge a doc fee" or anything like that because the business office person should be getting paid from the measly $300 gross profit from the sale of the car.
    so many people walk into a dealership with a chip on their shoulder, thinking that their shitty trade-in is worth more than market value while they should get their new vehicle at 10% below cost because "dealers make that back on hold-back and kick-backs from the manufacturer.

    I'm not saying that the car buying & selling business is squeaky clean. there are lots of areas of improvement. some sales people really are sleazy but some customers are just as bad.
    Well, you kept saying that customers dictate the price, and that is primarily what I am disagreeing with. The customer dictates nothing, the dealership holds almost all the cards and if the customer is being unreasonable, they aren't going to agree to the deal. If the customer gets the dealership to agree to a particular deal, then the dealership is obviously fine with whatever benefit they get from it whether that is straight profit, or to move more inventory for bigger manufacturer kickbacks, or something else.

    I've only done or helped people with a few trade ins, but in every case an inspection was done before they signed off on it. I can't believe it's the norm to do it after, I have never even heard of that and it just doesn't make sense. Why would they sign off on a trade-in value of X before inspecting the car? No dealer in their right mind would sign off on a trade in amount without even knowing if it was roadworthy or re-sellable. Trade-ins are dumb anyway, unless they are going to give you close to private sale value, it's a horrible value proposition. It also just gives the dealer another number to work with to trick you into thinking you're getting a deal on the new vehicle. If you're rich enough not to care, then that's great. I don't see how someone being upset that a dealer won't give them X dollars for their trade in is an issue - if both parties aren't happy with the deal then it doesn't happen and they can be as mad as they want, but neither party is any worse off for it.

    The office person isn't getting paid from the $300 commission split X number of ways, they are getting paid out of the giant pot of money the dealership makes from all facets of the business and are likely salaried in that position anyway, possibly with a bonus structure for selling protection packages and insurance. Sales people are almost entirely commission based however if you've seen the quality of the average sales person, it's not hard to see why only a tiny percentage of them are actually successful. The less successful they are, the more desperate they probably get, and the more willing they probably are to use shady tactics to get a sale.

    The reason people go into a dealership with a chip on their shoulder is they legitimately try to screw you and rip you off every single step of the way. Even the best dealers in the city with the best reputations still openly lie to customers to get them to buy useless things like protection packages. The only way for a customer to avoid getting screwed is to have their guard up and do their due diligence. Just as one example, instead of marking up PPF, protection packages, and undercoating 500%, why not offer those things at a fair market price and make money on volume and reputation rather than the few suckers they trick into buying it every month? There are so many simple tings they could do to improve their reputations but they aren't interested. And I know you acknowledged there is a lot to improve on, I just think it's much more on the dealer side of things than the customer's side.

    IMHO the common denominator is the fact that almost every dealership is extremely shady, so obviously the customers are going to behave differently. Compare that to a different business where every customer is treated fairly and not lied to, and it's night and day. I can't think of many other businesses that literally sneak things onto your invoice and hope you don't notice, waste hours of your time lying to you over and over again, reneg on refundable deposits, lie about product history, take advantage of the vulnerable, etc. nearly to the degree that car dealerships to. It's not just a case of a few bad apples either, almost every dealership operates this way and when you find one that is pleasant to deal with it's the exception not the norm. If that weren't the case, interactions on both sides would be far more pleasant for all parties involved, in theory anyway.

    Again, the dealer isn't going to sell you a car if they aren't happy with their side of the deal. Who cares if the customer is pissed that the dealer won't accept 10% below cost? Obviously that is not a price the market will bear. Most of them probably won't accept an offer like that, but neither party is harmed in any way if your offer is simply rejected. If you're looking at scenarios where dealers screw customers vs customers screwing dealers, I think you will find that it is pretty one sided. The dealers have all the tools necessary to protect themselves from anything a customer might reasonably do (i.e. trade in a car with an issue), whereas it is much harder for a customer to do the same, especially if you don't have good knowledge of the industry.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtsniffer View Post
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    I know a few business office folk who earn a quarter million peddling 3m and warranties. ya, you can fuck off on the doc fee.
    like I said, I don't agree with adding it in at the signing of the paperwork. it should all be done before-hand.
    "Make Canada a better place, punch a Canuck fan in the face" - Jim Rome

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disoblige View Post
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    I dislike greasy dealers like anyone would but man...
    Gotta get your facts straight. So many things in this statement that is cringey. I mean, I wonder what dealers must think of you with that sense of entitlement thinking new car sales "only" account for 25% of the profit, lol.
    I got that number from the NADA, do you have a better source? I think the figure I read was 26% gross profit, so actual would be even less.

    I have no idea what dealers think of me, but the last few cars I bought were 95% over email and I didn't waste even a second of their time. I'm guessing they like selling cars without having to do any work, but what do I know.
    Last edited by Mitsu3000gt; 02-25-2020 at 03:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    Well, you kept saying that customers dictate the price, and that is primarily what I am disagreeing with. The customer dictates nothing, the dealership holds almost all the cards and if the customer is being unreasonable, they aren't going to agree to the deal. If the customer gets the dealership to agree to a particular deal, then the dealership is obviously fine with whatever benefit they get from it whether that is straight profit, or to move more inventory for bigger manufacturer kickbacks, or something else.

    I've only done or helped people with a few trade ins, but in every case an inspection was done before they signed off on it. I can't believe it's the norm to do it after, I have never even heard of that and it just doesn't make sense. Why would they sign off on a trade-in value of X before inspecting the car? No dealer in their right mind would sign off on a trade in amount without even knowing if it was roadworthy or re-sellable. Trade-ins are dumb anyway, unless they are going to give you close to private sale value, it's a horrible value proposition. It also just gives the dealer another number to work with to trick you into thinking you're getting a deal on the new vehicle. If you're rich enough not to care, then that's great. I don't see how someone being upset that a dealer won't give them X dollars for their trade in is an issue - if both parties aren't happy with the deal then it doesn't happen and they can be as mad as they want, but neither party is any worse off for it.

    The office person isn't getting paid from the $300 commission split X number of ways, they are getting paid out of the giant pot of money the dealership makes from all facets of the business and are likely salaried in that position anyway, possibly with a bonus structure for selling protection packages and insurance. Sales people are almost entirely commission based however if you've seen the quality of the average sales person, it's not hard to see why only a tiny percentage of them are actually successful. The less successful they are, the more desperate they probably get, and the more willing they probably are to use shady tactics to get a sale.

    The reason people go into a dealership with a chip on their shoulder is they legitimately try to screw you and rip you off every single step of the way. Even the best dealers in the city with the best reputations still openly lie to customers to get them to buy useless things like protection packages. The only way for a customer to avoid getting screwed is to have their guard up and do their due diligence. Just as one example, instead of marking up PPF, protection packages, and undercoating 500%, why not offer those things at a fair market price and make money on volume and reputation rather than the few suckers they trick into buying it every month? There are so many simple tings they could do to improve their reputations but they aren't interested. And I know you acknowledged there is a lot to improve on, I just think it's much more on the dealer side of things than the customer's side.

    IMHO the common denominator is the fact that almost every dealership is extremely shady, so obviously the customers are going to behave differently. Compare that to a different business where every customer is treated fairly and not lied to, and it's night and day. I can't think of many other businesses that literally sneak things onto your invoice and hope you don't notice, waste hours of your time lying to you over and over again, reneg on refundable deposits, lie about product history, take advantage of the vulnerable, etc. nearly to the degree that car dealerships to. It's not just a case of a few bad apples either, almost every dealership operates this way and when you find one that is pleasant to deal with it's the exception not the norm. If that weren't the case, interactions on both sides would be far more pleasant for all parties involved, in theory anyway.

    Again, the dealer isn't going to sell you a car if they aren't happy with their side of the deal. Who cares if the customer is pissed that the dealer won't accept 10% below cost? Obviously that is not a price the market will bear. Most of them probably won't accept an offer like that, but neither party is harmed in any way if your offer is simply rejected. If you're looking at scenarios where dealers screw customers vs customers screwing dealers, I think you will find that it is pretty one sided. The dealers have all the tools necessary to protect themselves from anything a customer might reasonably do (i.e. trade in a car with an issue), whereas it is much harder for a customer to do the same, especially if you don't have good knowledge of the industry.
    all I can say is from this 1 post, you have no idea what you're talking about. everything you've posted is assumptions and bullshit.

    PPF markup is 500%? business office people do not get "salaried" off the giant pot of gold that you think the dealership dips into.

    anyway, I'm not trying to change any minds here. just trying to offer a different perspective.
    "Make Canada a better place, punch a Canuck fan in the face" - Jim Rome

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOAB View Post
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    all I can say is from this 1 post, you have no idea what you're talking about. everything you've posted is assumptions and bullshit.

    PPF markup is 500%? business office people do not get "salaried" off the giant pot of gold that you think the dealership dips into.

    anyway, I'm not trying to change any minds here. just trying to offer a different perspective.
    Not everything Mitsu3000gt is false, but sometimes it's just plain bullshit unfortunately. The problem is someone reading it who might be totally uneducated might think it is mostly true because he has a way of perceiving it that way. I have no doubt he believes it though.
    All dealers are SDS Baker family sleazy just like all Airpods fall out of their owner's ears often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOAB View Post
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    all I can say is from this 1 post, you have no idea what you're talking about. everything you've posted is assumptions and bullshit.

    PPF markup is 500%? business office people do not get "salaried" off the giant pot of gold that you think the dealership dips into.

    anyway, I'm not trying to change any minds here. just trying to offer a different perspective.
    Well, I've visited dealerships probably hundreds of times and bought or helped buy dozens of cars, and I have friends still working in the industry. That has been my experience based on the dealerships I have dealt with and the people I have talked to in the industry, YMMV. Obviously my opinions are going to be formed by my personal experience on the matter, and that doesn't make them wrong or BS just because you disagree. If you have had a different experience, I am not going to call you a liar for it.

    Using Honda as an example because it's easy, they wanted $1799 for undercoating on the last deal I did with them - ~500% higher than quotes I got elsewhere. I am not just making up numbers here.

    If you disagree with something I've said, why not provide something objective that shows me it's wrong instead of just saying it's assumptions and BS as if your word someone carries more weight than the next guys. If I am legitimately wrong about something I would genuinely appreciate the correction if you have something that shows it.
    Last edited by Mitsu3000gt; 02-25-2020 at 03:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    If you disagree with something I've said, why not provide something objective that shows me it's wrong instead of just saying it's assumptions and BS as if your word someone carries more weight than the next guys. If I am legitimately wrong about something I would genuinely appreciate the correction if you have something that shows it.
    like that would change your opinion one iota?

    this is coming from the guy that is a self proclaimed expert on almost everything? Oh, you're a realtor? I know more than you. a mechanic? I can fix cars better than you. You sell computers? i know more about that particular computer that i spent 100 hours researching before i came in. you want me to pay to help me get better at public speaking? fuck that! I can do it better without your help!
    "Make Canada a better place, punch a Canuck fan in the face" - Jim Rome

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsu3000gt View Post
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    If you disagree with something I've said, why not provide something objective that shows me it's wrong instead of just saying it's assumptions and BS as if your word someone carries more weight than the next guys. If I am legitimately wrong about something I would genuinely appreciate the correction if you have something that shows it.
    I dunno man. Basic Googling shows most sources saying a 1-2% net margin on new car sales. Some even saying they lose money. Even if you are talking gross %, that's is 10% or less.
    But that is if someone was a backseat Googler. I thought you were an expert based on you "visited dealerships probably hundreds of times and bought or helped buy dozens of cars, and have friends still working in the industry". You can't tell me you had to Google something off the internet and then assumed it was true did you???

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    He was talking about 25% of total profits, not 25% markup on cars.At least that's what I think he was implying. I mean, if you run a shitty service department in a luxury make dealership, you could see 25% of total profits coming from new car sales but that surely never happens.

    The crazy markup on 3M is pretty accurate. This is comparing what I pay at Shadow vs what I get quoted at the dealer, and the contractor the dealer uses always uses the shittiest cheapest films. The last car that I bought new with dealer installed 3M (RC-F) it was way higher than what Shadow would've charged me for a high impact area partial wrap (Showed $1500 on the invoice). It was such a shit job I had to get Renee to fix it.
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    You know, people would not object to dealership profits if the dealership experience was better than your average root canal. I haven't "visited hundreds of dealerships" but I've bought a few cars, and helped a few friends buy theirs, and honestly, if there's open and honest dealerships out there, then I've managed to be unlucky.

    I'm totally happy with them earning a profit, and selling profitable add-ons. But why make it so painful? Avoiding that pain is my main motivation for wanting to do direct sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    trust me guys, i'm not saying there isn't room for improvement. dealerships need to change with the times or get left behind. face to face sales will never go away. I rarely even buy clothes online. no way would i ever buy a vehicle without first sitting in one and driving one.

    new car sales is a tough gig and not an easy job to make a living at. our most successful sales people all have repeat customers. how is that possible if they rip every single one off?

    people that come in with a chip on their shoulder, give off a terrible attitude get treated as such and then they tell their friends how they were rudely ignored or were given attitude at the dealer.

    You ever read a bad review about a business online, only to find out that the customer was a giant dick and would never have been satisfied with any outcome?

    I had one customer get pissed at me because he lost his wheel lock key and I couldn't tell him which one of the 50 different options was on his car... like i was the one that stole his wheel lock key and caused him this giant inconvenience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SOAB View Post
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    new car sales is a tough gig and not an easy job to make a living at.
    Now that's something I can agree with!
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    I still think that we're the exception. The car dealership model works for the majority of car purchasers to maximize profits for the dealership. We know better, so it's a pain in the ass navigating their sales methodology. For these average consumers, I don't know if direct to sales will save them any money, even Tesla is still putting together subprime loans to bury upside down trade-ins and profiting from it. In the US they're giving pretty uncompetitive trade in values to add even more to the bottom line. Not sure how it is in Canada. @benyl how was your trade in value?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    I still think that we're the exception. The car dealership model works for the majority of car purchasers to maximize profits for the dealership. We know better, so it's a pain in the ass navigating their sales methodology.
    Does dj_rice know better though? He even works for a dealership...

    Jokes... I'm sure he's learned now lol..

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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    He was talking about 25% of total profits, not 25% markup on cars.At least that's what I think he was implying. I mean, if you run a shitty service department in a luxury make dealership, you could see 25% of total profits coming from new car sales but that surely never happens.
    I think the term should be revenue. 25% of the dealers total revenue is from new car sales but there is no way the new car department is making even close to break-even in this current market.
    "Make Canada a better place, punch a Canuck fan in the face" - Jim Rome

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOAB View Post
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    like that would change your opinion one iota?

    this is coming from the guy that is a self proclaimed expert on almost everything? Oh, you're a realtor? I know more than you. a mechanic? I can fix cars better than you. You sell computers? i know more about that particular computer that i spent 100 hours researching before i came in. you want me to pay to help me get better at public speaking? fuck that! I can do it better without your help!
    Lol what? I challenge you to find a single quote where I outright proclaim myself to be an expert on something, anything, at all. Those are your words, not mine. If someone is making that inference based on something I post, that is out of my control as I have never claimed to be an expert on anything. If you are going to make an accusation like that, you should at least have the decency to quote me saying that otherwise you are a hypocrite, especially on the heels of accusing me of saying things that aren't true. In fact, my most commonly used word on beyond is probably "IMO" or "IMHO" to let people know I am not trying to represent something as universal fact, but rather am speaking from personal experience which may or may not match the next persons'. If someone asks for input on something and I reply, it is to the best of my knowledge, same as anyone else who replies. Nothing is ever intentionally wrong or deceptive.

    Absolutely it would change my opinion - if someone can show me objective evidence that is different than what I believe to be true, I 100% would accept that. It happens all the time, that's how I learn.

    rage2 seems to agree with me on PPF markup - I don't see you calling him out And the undercoating markup was pretty well exactly 500%. Since you specifically called me out on that, what do you have to say about that now?

    Have you ever thought that I might actually be telling the truth, at least to the best of my knowledge and based on my experiences? It's not such a crazy thought that two people might have different exposure and therefore information - you don't see me calling them liars. I have never intentionally lied or provided knowingly false information on Beyond in my entire time on here. If I am wrong about something and someone can show me objectively so (which certainly does happen), you will see that my response is almost always a thank-you. Ask yourself what I have to gain by making something up - it would be a waste of everyone's time including my own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Disoblige View Post
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    I dunno man. Basic Googling shows most sources saying a 1-2% net margin on new car sales. Some even saying they lose money. Even if you are talking gross %, that's is 10% or less.
    But that is if someone was a backseat Googler. I thought you were an expert based on you "visited dealerships probably hundreds of times and bought or helped buy dozens of cars, and have friends still working in the industry". You can't tell me you had to Google something off the internet and then assumed it was true did you???
    Rage basically described what I was getting at above - if I was unclear about something then I apologize. As I mentioned earlier, my number was from the NADA and I also asked you to provide a different source if you had a better one, otherwise what you're saying carries no more weight than what I am saying. If I'm wrong then I will own it, but show me something that proves it - don't just tell me I'm making stuff up. A interesting pattern I notice is that everyone who regularly calls me out on here never seems to be able to provide anything material that shows I might be wrong, they just think their opinion is somehow more valuable despite not knowing any details of how I came to that conclusion. I also notice that when I get called out for something, other people who post the exact same thing never take any flak, which tells me most of what I need to know. I understand that I am opinionated and I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but that doesn't make me dishonest - every single post I make with information in it is a genuine attempt to help, not deceive.

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