Quantcast
Snowbird down - Page 3 - Beyond.ca - Car Forums
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 89

Thread: Snowbird down

  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    YYC
    My Ride
    2 x E Class Benz
    Posts
    21,603
    Rep Power
    34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jutes View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If he would have turned right instead of left into a residential area, they would’ve landed in the river. You can if’s until the cows come home. Also, the hawk isn’t a good replacement anyway as the tutor allows the team to visit smaller airfields and requires less logistical support. I’ve seen how much crap and extra personnel the Red Arrows bring, we couldn’t afford it on our budget.
    Turning right would’ve headed right into downtown, past that a hill with more residence. Doubt the pilot was aiming for anything, lost control by the time they could see the horizon.

    Plane crashed a few blocks from my MILs house.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Parked in Baygirl's garage.
    My Ride
    2019 F150 Lariat 3.5L BOOST!
    Posts
    4,288
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I asked my dad about this.

    Some rando comments:

    - It's common for pilots to pull to the left in general because you are pushing on the stick rather than pulling so that's not entirely surprising
    It is ingrained in pilot training that you always turn left. 2 planes out of radio contact, heading towards each other are to always turn left to avoid a collision. Pilot training 101. Formation flying is different, I never went through that kind of training.

    Source: I went through the training to become a pilot.
    Boosted life tip #329
    Girlfriends cost money
    Turbos cost money
    Both make whining noises
    Make the smart choice.

    Originally posted by Mibz
    Always a fucking awful experience seeing spikers. Extra awful when he laps me.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    GLA
    Posts
    2,115
    Rep Power
    28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spikerS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It is ingrained in pilot training that you always turn left. 2 planes out of radio contact, heading towards each other are to always turn left to avoid a collision. Pilot training 101. Formation flying is different, I never went through that kind of training.

    Source: I went through the training to become a pilot.
    Ya, I'm just repeating what my dad had to say, ha. He said in the tutor, if you are left seat you prefer to turn left (all else being equal), because you have better visibility and most fighter pilots using a stick feel more comfortable rolling left, and then also didn't want to lose sight of his lead. I have no pilot training myself, lol.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    CLK 55 / 2g Eclipse / EP3
    Posts
    4,244
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JRSC00LUDE View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Can you elaborate on that comment?
    This pilot got lucky

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-C5E9qj52w

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    R.F. is an entity that is everywhere
    Posts
    1,298
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JRSC00LUDE View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Can you elaborate on that comment?
    In a low energy state like an engine failure on takeoff, it's easy to stall in a turn back to the runway. Essentially the lower wing will stall before the higher wing in a turn which can put you in a spin. Even if you are successful in your turn you may not have the altitude to make it back to the runway. Pilots are commonly trained that an engine failure on takeoff below 1000 ft you land straight ahead (or close to straight ahead).

    I'm a low time pilot unlike a few of the pros on here but it's a point I personally cover off prior to taxiing to the runway. I have a close friend I often fly with who has several thousands of hours and it's even something him and I verbally state to each other after our engine runup check. We verbally talk through an engine failure prior to rotation, an engine failure after takeoff, and who takes control in each event. It's something I'll talk to myself about when I go flying this week too.

    Every year there are cases of this exact scenario killing pilots around the world. In Canada, all pilots have spin training but as crazy at is seems there are countries who train pilots without actual spin training (only something they read about).
    1983 Dodge W150 Power Ram. 360/NP435/D44/9.25

  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    calgary ab
    My Ride
    4x4
    Posts
    2,216
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rat Fink View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Every year there are cases of this exact scenario killing pilots around the world. In Canada, all pilots have spin training but as crazy at is seems there are countries who train pilots without actual spin training (only something they read about).
    So what are flight schools doing now? Diamonds and the newer cessnas have "no spin" placards now?

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    R.F. is an entity that is everywhere
    Posts
    1,298
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So what are flight schools doing now? Diamonds and the newer cessnas have "no spin" placards now?
    Not sure. The newest plane I have ever flown was built in 1977 so my flight training was done in aircraft that were put through actual spins. If there are pilots being trained in Canada without real spin entry/recovery then that's just sad....
    1983 Dodge W150 Power Ram. 360/NP435/D44/9.25

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    YYC
    My Ride
    2 x E Class Benz
    Posts
    21,603
    Rep Power
    34

    Default

    Found an analysis of the incident that goes into engine failure theory:



    Top comment is from an ex snowbird pilot, says you need 2000ft to eject and pilot followed what he was trained on. Saw him post the same thing on multiple forums. Gain altitude, restart, eject is the take off engine failure procedure.

    Never noticed the pop in the original video till it was pointed out here.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    My Ride
    GLC43
    Posts
    8,418
    Rep Power
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jutes View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    From Nova Scotia too, they’ve been hit hard recently.
    Did someone disturbed an Indian burial ground out there or something? 4 major incidents in like 8 weeks or less.

    RIP.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    146
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    I'll post a link to a great analysis, lots of former Snowbirds are posting in the comments of this video.

    I'd spoken to this Public Affairs officer (Capt Jenn Casey) for the Snowbirds a while back, my mother and her father (my grandfather) both worked for years in the RCAF at Moose Jaw, and there is a cemetary very close to the base. We buried mom in October there, right when the Snowbirds induct new team members, and they had been flying that day doing training, and the lead pilot saw the burial taking place, and on a whim did a missing man formation over us right near the deck, with 3 jets and a missing one in the middle slot (a 3 jet missing man essentially). They couldn't have know that my grandfather's grave has a large RCAF emblem and his medals/commendations written into the stone, and that between him and my mom there was 45 years of RCAF service beneath their jets. I called them when I got home, and wrote a letter to the DND about this. The officer who died in this incident coordinated me meeting the lead pilot and hand delivering him a letter of thanks, as well as pushing my initial email/letter up the chain of command in the DND. She was very kind, and very good at that job. A sad loss for the RCAF, and my family will remember her now always as well for the part she played in my moms burial/etc.

    Here is the link to the vid, there is an obvious pop in the video as the CT114 climbs to grab altitude, right out of the book for an engine restart (the pop being an engine failure most likely). Just not enough alt/speed, jet stalled then spun, did a great job of attempting recovering IMO, but still outside the safe ejection window for the second ejection seat. As Jutes said, not a zero zero seat. It's too bad Trudeau didn't take 1/2 of that 600 million bonus CBC got on TOP of their regular funding, and bought some Hawks with a zero zero seat and newer planes (I know that the Tutors the Snowbirds fly work well and that their engines are pretty good as well, but old is old, and the main issue being a better ejection seat/system). Anyhow, at 1:38 in this excellent video below, you can clearly here the engine failure pop. The pilot reacted instantly as can be seen, pulled the nose up to gain altitude within one second of the pop of the engine failure. This video goes into great detail on the jet/engine/ejection seats/etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10Og_7sqU7s
    Last edited by Gman.45; 05-18-2020 at 08:08 PM.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 1987
    Location
    SK
    My Ride
    Fit Dugan Signature (2016)
    Posts
    3,019
    Rep Power
    40

    Default

    Gman, what a great story thanks for sharing.
    Originally posted by SJW
    Once again another useless post by JRSCOOLDUDE.
    Originally posted by snowcat
    Don't let the e-thugs and faggots get to you when they quote your posts and write stupid shit.

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,029
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Turning right would’ve headed right into downtown, past that a hill with more residence. Doubt the pilot was aiming for anything, lost control by the time they could see the horizon.

    Plane crashed a few blocks from my MILs house.
    I think you’re looking at the runway backwards. Check google maps and look at the number markings. Runway is going opposite of the town and there is nothing over there but a big lake.

    Edit: Guy said it crashed next to his house by a golf course, which would mean they actually were heading towards downtown. So they were taking off from the runway backwards?

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    YYC
    My Ride
    2 x E Class Benz
    Posts
    21,603
    Rep Power
    34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by googe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think you’re looking at the runway backwards. Check google maps and look at the number markings. Runway is going opposite of the town and there is nothing over there but a big lake.

    Edit: Guy said it crashed next to his house by a golf course, which would mean they actually were heading towards downtown. So they were taking off from the runway backwards?
    It took off from the longer runway heading SE (09). Basically placed them lined up with the Thompson River on takeoff. It crashed a block east of the airport and 1/2 block north of the river.

    There is no taking off "backwards". Runways go both directions depending on wind direction.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,029
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Ah makes sense. I saw the 09 but thought it was a 60 facing the other way. I guess that is why he deviated from what they are apparently trained to do in that situation. Ejecting and letting it cruise into downtown could have risked ending the snowbirds entirely if it went into a high rise full of people or something.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,029
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    More info this “impossible turn” as it’s known:

    https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...traight-ahead/

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    YYC
    My Ride
    2 x E Class Benz
    Posts
    21,603
    Rep Power
    34

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by googe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Ah makes sense. I saw the 09 but thought it was a 60 facing the other way. I guess that is why he deviated from what they are apparently trained to do in that situation. Ejecting and letting it cruise into downtown could have risked ending the snowbirds entirely if it went into a high rise full of people or something.
    Based on posts I've read from several ex snowbird pilots, they all seem to agree that the pilot followed the standard engine failure procedure. Gain altitude, try to restart, and eject. There was no plan for turning back, no aiming for anything. Control was lost when the plane stalled during the gain altitude phase. It just looked like it was trying to turn back from altitude gain, when the main reason is because the seats need 2000+ above ground level to safely eject as part of standard procedure.

    There's no highrises in downtown Kamloops. It's a big ass hill to the right of the river, and tons of homes and parks to the left (North shore) before another big ass hill. The river carves through sort of a valley that encompasses north shore and downtown. Would be curious if they could've pulled off a miracle on the Hudson style water landing, but that seems to be against the operating procedure regardless. There nowhere else to aim for from that low of an altitude, mountain, water, or people unfortunately.

    So yea, my earlier post at an attempted turn around looks to be incorrect.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
    I have gone above and beyond what I should rightfully have to do to protect my good name

  17. #57
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    calgary ab
    My Ride
    4x4
    Posts
    2,216
    Rep Power
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by googe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    More info this “impossible turn” as it’s known:

    https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-...traight-ahead/
    It wasn't an impossible turn attempt. The wing wag is an incipient stall/departure stall.

    Throw it into xplane, the ct114 model is fucked (it will actually let you do an impossible turn with ease) so use the t37, set it at mtow, follow CFS noise abatement rules for kamloops, you clear the fence at the end of the runway at about 150kts, set flameout at 150kts, you can get 250-300' agl. I can barely get in a radio call, guage scan, reset throttle and hit relight - and I'm in a spin...

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    CLK 55 / 2g Eclipse / EP3
    Posts
    4,244
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Wow - 2000ft AGL (level flight) in order to punch out?? Thats a flying coffin then during the most vulnerable phase of flight. Not sure how the other crew member even survived.

    Why the crap are these still in use in 2020 for air shows?


    My guess (#2):

    Pilot was trained in the standard engine out process, but the airspeed decayed much faster than expected with the engine-out drag (the small turbojets have low internal,rotational inertia), and they stalled it.
    Last edited by revelations; 05-19-2020 at 12:44 PM.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Calgary
    My Ride
    GLA
    Posts
    2,115
    Rep Power
    28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by revelations View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Wow - 2000ft AGL (level flight) in order to punch out?? Thats a flying coffin then during the most vulnerable phase of flight. Not sure how the other crew member even survived.

    Why the crap are these still in use in 2020 for air shows?


    My guess (#2):

    Pilot was trained in the standard engine out process, but the airspeed decayed much faster than expected with the engine-out drag (the small turbojets have low internal,rotational inertia), and they stalled it.
    0-0 ejection seats are pretty rare in aviation.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    calgary
    My Ride
    CLK 55 / 2g Eclipse / EP3
    Posts
    4,244
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    0-0 ejection seats are pretty rare in aviation.
    In GA? Definitely. However ballistic chutes are on some smaller A/C.

    With regards to the RCAF? - as far as their fighter and training aircraft, most are 0/0.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Latest Threads: 11-10-2017, 08:34 AM
  2. Replies: 27
    Latest Threads: 09-04-2015, 11:34 AM
  3. Any one down for a CASINO meet

    By BarryBeach in forum General
    Replies: 12
    Latest Threads: 06-17-2002, 08:26 PM
  4. Is that red Acura NSX still down at Lone Star?

    By Fat Dave in forum General Car/Bike Talk
    Replies: 11
    Latest Threads: 06-10-2002, 09:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •