Black Lives Matter discussion

[Antonito]

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And no culture deserves special attention and protection by a government.

Why not? Ignoring the legal reasons why Canada is liable for the things it did, what is the moral justification for Canada not fixing the problem it created?

[kertejud2]

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If a company poison's a water source, they would settle on a nice fat one time payment.
Not continue to pay in perpetuity.

Your example sucks.

Get the government to offer a fat one time payment, then.

DuPont and PFOA lawsuits have shown that you can’t always get away with trying one time settlements.

[Buster]

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If a company poisons a water source that has immediate and lasting effects on a community, should that company, acknowledging what they did, be expected to compensate the community and help rectify their mistake? Or just say ‘fuck it, we won’t continue to poison your water supply, everything is all square going forward, now”?

The government poisoned a culture that left lasting effects, rectifying the problem takes time. The government can’t take responsibility for all instances of wrongdoings in the past (nice straw man), but it can be held responsible for the ones it is responsible for. Helping people rebuild their culture after doing what you could to destroy it isn’t “special attention and protection”, it’s being responsible for your actions and dealing with the consequences.

Your analogy is terrible. Analogies should be a last resort in a discussion - very weak form of argument.

At any rate, your point rests on at least three conclusions, which by all appearances are incorrect: 1. that the government has the capacity to "compensate" appropriately 2. that the government can "rectify" anything effectively. 3. that the government's efforts will make matters better and not worse.

[vengie]

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Get the government to offer a fat one time payment, then.

DuPont and PFOA lawsuits have shown that you can’t always get away with trying one time settlements.

Of course you can't, especially when you have created an entire culture who relies on government hand outs.

[kertejud2]

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Your analogy is terrible. Analogies should be a last resort in a discussion - very weak form of argument.

At any rate, your point rests on at least three conclusions, which by all appearances are incorrect: 1. that the government has the capacity to "compensate" appropriately 2. that the government can "rectify" anything effectively. 3. that the government's efforts will make matters better and not worse.

That’s up to the wronged party to decide. Not the government, and not you.

[Buster]

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That’s up to the wronged party to decide. Not the government, and not you.

I thought we all wanted to work together to get this situation fixed?

It is quite clear that FN people want "us" to be involved in a solution. It's certainly useful for all opinions to be heard in an attempt to make the world a better place.

Having said that, I'm more than happy to discuss what outcomes the FN people would like to see and how we can get there. A bad situation was created by gov't. Of course, the solution that has dominated since (let's call it The Left), is that more government will fix it all up! When people think that the solution to the shittiness of government is more government, that's a failure of reason. Maybe they think that given enough opportunities government will magically become competent. At any rate, nobody seems to be arguing that your "rectify" policy is leading to excellent outcomes for FN people. Maybe you're happy with how segregation is going?

[kertejud2]

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Having said that, I'm more than happy to discuss what outcomes the FN people would like to see and how we can get there.

'Hey, I'm some guy with no power or decision making ability who thinks that the treatment you've received in the past is irrelevant going forward and you don't deserve any special treatment. Who's ready to make a deal.'


What a goof.

[Buster]

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'Hey, I'm some guy with no power or decision making ability who thinks that the treatment you've received in the past is irrelevant going forward and you don't deserve any special treatment. Who's ready to make a deal.'


What a goof.

woah, woah. Slow down there sport.

We're trying to identify a problem and a solution. You perceive two problems: the past is EVIL, we must fix it...and also the outcomes for FN in today's world aren't great. I don't consider the first part to be a problem we can fix. It's in the past. The best we can do is create a better future. I'm claiming that the garbage that people like you have been slinging hasn't worked in the past - despite this you think that more of it will somehow work in the future. Your logic circuits are broken. I'm suggesting a better path forward without being attached to the failed policies of the past.

[jutes]

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'Hey, I'm some guy with no power or decision making ability who thinks that the treatment you've received in the past is irrelevant going forward and you don't deserve any special treatment. Who's ready to make a deal.'

Paying out, giving special treatment, whatever, to people who weren't even alive when all this happened is the way forward? How does that even make any sense. Maybe I should go back in my family history to see if there were any genocides or land grabs by governments, just to make things even. How far back do we go? Or does this only apply to distant relatives of aboriginals because they were the only ones mistreated?

Reconciliation is just a word, even FN don't know how to completely end this, do they even want to? Free government money is flowing in, seems like they are happy the way things are.

[kertejud2]

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woah, woah. Slow down there sport.

We're trying to identify a problem and a solution. You perceive two problems: the past is EVIL, we must fix it...and also the outcomes for FN in today's world aren't great. I don't consider the first part to be a problem we can fix. It's in the past. The best we can do is create a better future. I'm claiming that the garbage that people like you have been slinging hasn't worked in the past - despite this you think that more of it will somehow work in the future. Your logic circuits are broken. I'm suggesting a better path forward without being attached to the failed policies of the past.

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We're trying to identify a problem and a solution. You perceive two problems: the past is EVIL, we must fix it...and also the outcomes for FN in today's world aren't great. I don't consider the first part to be a problem we can fix. It's in the past.

You're off to a bad start in dealing with the desired outcomes:

https://www.afn.ca/policy-sectors/in...ntial-schools/

The best we can do is create a better future. I'm claiming that the garbage that people like you have been slinging hasn't worked in the past - despite this you think that more of it will somehow work in the future. Your logic circuits are broken. I'm suggesting a better path forward without being attached to the failed policies of the past.

You're also suggesting that an attempt to help preserve and rebuild a culture that was the result of a cultural genocide ('the Right's words, if team sports are still your thing) is giving special treatment and no culture deserves it. So that's strike two for desired outcomes.

https://www.afn.ca/policy-sectors/la...s-and-culture/


So there are two desired outcomes, laid out, with respect to the context of 'cultural permanence'. How would you help reach them:

- Establish long-term, sustainable, consistent, appropriate approaches to support FN in their efforts to recover, reclaim, revitalize, maintain and normalize FN languages.

- Re: the goal of reconciliation and healing as a result of Residential Schools; a comprehensive approach requires compensation, truth-telling, healing, and public education.

[Buster]

Uh, why are you posting things about residential schools? Nobody likes those. It's an important topic, but not a very interesting one at this point in the conversation. There's nothing really new to add.

I'm not interested in getting involved with people maintaining their culture. I don't think it is government's job either. If people want to maintain their culture, nobody (today) is stopping them. Culture to your heart's content, my friends! As for reconciliation: I'm interested in a conversation around compensation - throw out a number just to kick things off. Careful, it's a bit of a minefield.

As for truth-telling, and public education - there is an abundance of that right now. No group gets more special attention than FN in this regard.

[kertejud2]

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Having said that, I'm more than happy to discuss what outcomes the FN people would like to see and how we can get there.

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Uh, why are you posting things about residential schools? Nobody likes those. It's an important topic, but not a very interesting one at this point in the conversation. There's nothing really new to add.

I'm not interested in getting involved with people maintaining their culture. I don't think it is government's job either. If people want to maintain their culture, nobody (today) is stopping them. Culture to your heart's content, my friends! As for reconciliation: I'm interested in a conversation around compensation - throw out a number just to kick things off. Careful, it's a bit of a minefield.

As for truth-telling, and public education - there is an abundance of that right now. No group gets more special attention than FN in this regard.

Inspiring.

[Buster]

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Inspiring.

It's a heavy burden.

(I didn't say hand FN a blank check for money and white guilt. I just said I'm happy to discuss it.)

You need to face the fact that your segregationist policy, your infantilizing economic ideas, and your refusal to leave the past and move to the future has lead to a disastrous situation for the FN. It's a failure. Your team has failed. It's time to let people with more productive ideas set policy.

[kertejud2]

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It's a heavy burden.

(I didn't say hand FN a blank check for money and white guilt. I just said I'm happy to discuss it.)

You offered to see how you can bring the outcomes FN people wanted, then got all pouty when you saw what the desired outcomes were and didn't want to discuss it.

You need to face the fact that your segregationist policy, your infantilizing economic ideas, and your refusal to leave the past and move to the future has lead to a disastrous situation for the FN. It's a failure. Your team has failed.

You got all this from me explaining why "everybody" wants FN culture permanence? Just take a step back, take a breath, and scream into a pillow or something. You're losing it.

It's time to let people with more productive ideas set policy.

Who are these people with the productive ideas?

[Buster]

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You offered to see how you can bring the outcomes FN people wanted, then got all pouty when you saw what the desired outcomes were and didn't want to discuss it.



You got all this from me explaining why "everybody" wants FN culture permanence? Just take a step back, take a breath, and scream into a pillow or something. You're losing it.



Who are these people with the productive ideas?

You're confusing asking about outcomes with just asking what people want. It's a subtle but important distinction. The demands made by FN and by white liberal types by using words like "reconciliation" are not outcomes. Do they want society levels of alcoholism, poverty, health-outcomes, drug abuse, income, etc? If so, let's discuss realistic, non-segregationist, non-racist, non-gov't mandated ways to get there. Or perhaps you aren't actually interested in these things? Given your propensity towards feel-good policy over practical policy, you seem to be demanding a continuation of the status quo. Personally, I don't think that's good enough. I don't think you should think it's good enough either.

[AndyL]

Bringing it back around to BLM

https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/06/...-hung-himself/

“On behalf of the family of Malcolm Harsch unfortunately it seems he did take his own life,” said the spokesman, Najee Ali.

Since my Facebook feed is full of people claiming a sudden resurgence in lynching... Family was so vocal about how he didn't kill himself. Hardly makes news when proven he did.

I'm still struggling with this one - every rope swing that's been hung for decades now is suddenly a noose. (Google noose California there's lots of articles to pick through)

And after 39 years without any - there's 5 claims of lynchings this month?

[kertejud2]

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You're confusing asking about outcomes with just asking what people want. It's a subtle but important distinction. The demands made by FN and by white liberal types by using words like "reconciliation" are not outcomes. Do they want society levels of alcoholism, poverty, health-outcomes, drug abuse, income, etc?

They want a lot of things. But wants aren't outcomes apparently.

https://www.afn.ca/policy-sectors/

Why don't you delve through that and let them know which wants are worthwhile, and which aren't worth discussing.

As for reconciliation, the famous, white, liberal-type Stephen Harper made a commission on reconciliation, which did have a mandate to help define it. http://www.trc.ca/

"Reconciliation is about establishing and maintaining a mutually respectful relationship between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal peoples in this country. In order for that to happen, there has to be awareness of the past, an acknowledgement of the harm that has been inflicted, atonement for the causes, and action to change behaviour.”

But again, this goes back to the original point. Why "everybody" wants a special permanence of FN culture (vengie and jutes are guys I'm particularly interested to hear from on this). It's because there was a cultural genocide and accepting that is part of the way to achieve the desired outcome of reconciliation. Something that Stephen Harper, while having a majority government, enshrined as the responsibility and policy of the Government of Canada. So if you want to blame anybody for the demands made, maybe blame the right people (or should I say, 'The Right' people).

So which side of the aisle are the productive policy makers coming from again? It'd be great to see one.

[gwill]

the govt is getting held to the standard they agreed to on the treaties and will continue to lose more and more court cases. Let's make sure we remember where this mess came from.

Just because you dont like the mess doesnt mean the govt gets to skip out and ignore constitutionally protected rights.

The rights that offend some will continue "as long as the sun shines, the grass grows and the rivers flow."

[Buster]

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the govt is getting held to the standard they agreed to on the treaties and will continue to lose more and more court cases. Let's make sure we remember where this mess came from.

Just because you dont like the mess doesnt mean the govt gets to skip out and ignore constitutionally protected rights.

The rights that offend some will continue "as long as the sun shines, the grass grows and the rivers flow."

Holding on to failed policies, whether we call them treaties or otherwise, makes no sense. Everyone involved (especially the FN) should understand that the treaties have been counter-productive to the quality-of-life of FN people. There is a better way forward than hanging on to segregationist policies of the past.

[kertejud2]

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Holding on to failed policies, whether we call them treaties or otherwise, makes no sense. Everyone involved (especially the FN) should understand that the treaties have been counter-productive to the quality-of-life of FN people. There is a better way forward than hanging on to segregationist policies of the past.

And here I thought you said you wanted realistic plans.