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Thread: Black Lives Matter discussion

  1. #441
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    Here’s an interesting sort of counterpoint as to why there’s protests yet none for white people.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-white-people/
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by max_boost View Post
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    How about sentencing? Blacks seem to get much stiffer sentences than Whites for the same crime. Do the stats back that up?
    I do think if you're rich and white in the states then your sentence would be less than a colored person poorer economic class citizen. If its intentional or not, i'm not sure but could also be the lack of resources to hire a good lawyer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max_boost View Post
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    How about sentencing? Blacks seem to get much stiffer sentences than Whites for the same crime. Do the stats back that up?
    Sentencing is a complex issue, and it is hard to find information that doesn't sound like a VOX headline.

    Unpacking the degree to which racism exists in the criminal justice system ex police is complicated. You have to normalize for a pretty large number of categories: amount of time spent in jail pre-trail (generally related to financial resources), actual poverty level, previous criminal history (violent and nonviolent), severity of the actual offenses in some cases, the reason why black women get lighter sentences than white men. In addition, there are other weird factors. For instance, WAY WAY more black people get caught up in the drug free school zone laws, which impose much stiffer penalties. But is this due to racism or an unintended consequence of a well intentioned law to protect kids? Are the devious racist lawmakers trying to implement secretly racist laws by taking advantage of higher a higher urban concentration of black people in cities where school zones are a large percentage of the area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    Either you want to look at causality and all of the ugly things it might reveal, or you do not. It's certainly easier to blame "the system" or whatever makes you feel good.
    Odd that you think those are 2 separate things

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    The other thing that should change is the power of police unions to defend cops against being fired for misconduct. Want to watch a progressive's head explode? Explain to them that one of the reasons for police brutality is public service unions.
    If the employer is not willing to admit the employee did anything seriously wrong, how can they justify firing them? A union would actually be derelict in duty if they didn't represent their member against what, on paper, seems to be an unfair firing. I see union companies fire people every day that never have to deal with unions, because they are willing to provide evidence of what they are firing their employee for.

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    So. Should Canada accept those in the USA seeking asylum? California refugees, it was always going to be a thing - I just thought it would be because of earthquake first.

    https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/polit...ity/index.html

    Assume: Black net worth of $17,600 out of work for half year and without medical benefits (which would become negative net worth). Is there a reason to stay in the USA other than to become a statistic?

    BTW: $41,000 US per year in the USA absolutely means that people will not be able to cover an unexpected $400 accident/expense in any major city.
    Last edited by ZenOps; 06-04-2020 at 07:55 AM.
    Combustion engine cars - Bwahaha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    Odd that you think those are 2 separate things
    I do.

    The first implies that we can have specific conversations. The second implies something that is vague and non-specific (ie not very useful).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    I do.

    The first implies that we can have specific conversations. The second implies something that is vague and non-specific (ie not very useful).
    Ah yes, ignoring things counter to your agenda. It worked pretty well for you in your "just asking questions" phase of this thread.

    While on the topic of your performance in this thread, one small critique: some pages back you said the democrats policies lead to a type of segregation. You're mixing up the playbook. Leftists are to get blamed for segregating immigrant minorities by allowing them to speak their home language and keep their religion. Mentioning segregation and black people is too easy to bring up actual legal segregation that happened. Sure, you could play the old "well acshully the democrats started the KKK" card but then you have to hope nobody asks about what happened after the 1960s, bit risky.

    You have now managed to get back on track by blaming the democrats for keeping black people down by offering government assistance, and sure it's super easy to point out that this is astoundingly racist or just dumb, but really when you're on this path it's all just super flimsy emotionally-based concepts the whole way down. Best to at least stick to the well beaten path

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    You posted a stat that was demonstrably false. I showed a study that showed so.

    You equate police shooting as the determining factor in whether or not there's racism against black people in a thread about a guy who wasn't shot.

    That aren't moving goal posts, just pointing out that your stats are not very good either by accuracy or their ability to accurately paint a picture of the problem being presented.

    You already picked your conclusion, I don't know why you pretend to care about data at that point.

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by kertejud2 View Post
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    You posted a stat that was demonstrably false. I showed a study that showed so.

    You equate police shooting as the determining factor in whether or not there's racism against black people in a thread about a guy who wasn't shot.

    That aren't moving goal posts, just pointing out that your stats are not very good either by accuracy or their ability to accurately paint a picture of the problem being presented.

    You already picked your conclusion, I don't know why you pretend to care about data at that point.
    You posted the studies about police shootings. lol. And you also tried to establish that the small percentage of non-shooting deaths are somehow more relevant than the other 90%.

    I'm interested to see what stat I posted that was incorrect - I'm more than happy to correct it to clear up any inaccuracies.

    Any other goalposts you want to move?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    Ah yes, ignoring things counter to your agenda. It worked pretty well for you in your "just asking questions" phase of this thread.

    While on the topic of your performance in this thread, one small critique: some pages back you said the democrats policies lead to a type of segregation. You're mixing up the playbook. Leftists are to get blamed for segregating immigrant minorities by allowing them to speak their home language and keep their religion. Mentioning segregation and black people is too easy to bring up actual legal segregation that happened. Sure, you could play the old "well acshully the democrats started the KKK" card but then you have to hope nobody asks about what happened after the 1960s, bit risky.

    You have now managed to get back on track by blaming the democrats for keeping black people down by offering government assistance, and sure it's super easy to point out that this is astoundingly racist or just dumb, but really when you're on this path it's all just super flimsy emotionally-based concepts the whole way down. Best to at least stick to the well beaten path
    I'm simply asking that you be specific in your claims. People use words like "systemic racism" or "institutional racism" because they don't like giving specific examples. They just like the amorphous stuff. It's also how tarot card readers work.
    Last edited by Buster; 06-03-2020 at 04:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    You posted the studies about police shootings. lol.
    Because you made a false claim about them.

    And you also tried to establish that the small percentage of non-shooting deaths are somehow more relevant than the other 90%.
    It's the equating that shootings, or even killings in general, are all the determining factor in demonstrating whether or not racism exists in the treatment of police. A 'police related death' is an endpoint. It's not that they are more or less relevant, but it's pretty glaring that you're using shootings as your baseline in a thread about a guy who wasn't shot. That's just willfully ignoring the issue at hand.

    I'm interested to see what stat I posted that was incorrect - I'm more than happy to correct it to clear up any inaccuracies.
    If you were, you would have read it the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster
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    And unarmed deaths by police are largely proportional between whites and blacks.
    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...745-9133.12269

    We analyzed 990 police fatal shootings using data compiled by The Washington Post in 2015. After first providing a basic descriptive analysis of these shootings, we then examined the data for evidence of implicit bias by using multivariate regression models that predict two indicators of threat perception failure: (1) whether the civilian was not attacking the officer(s) or other civilians just before being fatally shot and (2) whether the civilian was unarmed when fatally shot. The results indicated civilians from ¬“other¬” minority groups were significantly more likely than Whites to have not been attacking the officer(s) or other civilians and that Black civilians were more than twice as likely as White civilians to have been unarmed.

  12. #452
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    Ah yes in the year 2020 you still demand to have the concepts of systemic and institutional racism spoon fed to you like a baby.

    "Watch any of the thousands of well known and often award winning movies or documentaries? Fuck that. Read a book or article, including some that have been posted in this thread? Get fucked. Retain any info from any of the past dozens of times people have responded to this request in other threads? Fuck you. Put in the effort to point by point explain centuries of history, sociology and economics or you're a touchy feely hippy" - a truly honest participant in this debate

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    I find this to be the most frustrating aspect of these discussions.

    Neither kertejud2 or Antonito are arguing against Buster in good faith here. It comes across as 1/3rd arguing the point, 1/3rd trying to call him out, and 1/3rd trying to hold the line for the team and shut down someone who looks like they play for the other team. You guys are still making jabs. That is fine for a troll who isn’t accepting facts (though arguably unproductive).

    I often don’t agree with the guy but maybe try forming a counter argument or presenting some context that was overlooked and it could be a productive discussion.

    He’s not just deflecting and being an ignorant defensive white guy here. Neither was I. And obviously rage2 wasn’t. None of us actually care if we are proven wrong and the data says white people are indeed the worst. The reason I don’t care is because I already assumed that white cops and wannabe white cops are killing blacks in disproportionate numbers and I do not feel a shred of responsibility for that anyway. It’s just surprising that the numbers we have seem to be upside down as of 2019, because that’s not what everyone is chanting.

    Don’t put “just asking questions” in scare quotes. If you don’t think he’s asking in good faith, which is what that says, just save yourself the typing. He won’t listen anyway right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    Ah yes in the year 2020 you still demand to have the concepts of systemic and institutional racism spoon fed to you like a baby.
    Appropriately enough, Ben & Jerry's has a page to do just that for people.

    Seriously.

    https://www.benjerry.com/home/whats-...racism-is-real

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    Quote Originally Posted by kertejud2 View Post
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    Because you made a false claim about them.



    It's the equating that shootings, or even killings in general, are all the determining factor in demonstrating whether or not racism exists in the treatment of police. A 'police related death' is an endpoint. It's not that they are more or less relevant, but it's pretty glaring that you're using shootings as your baseline in a thread about a guy who wasn't shot. That's just willfully ignoring the issue at hand.



    If you were, you would have read it the first time.



    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...745-9133.12269

    We analyzed 990 police fatal shootings using data compiled by The Washington Post in 2015. After first providing a basic descriptive analysis of these shootings, we then examined the data for evidence of implicit bias by using multivariate regression models that predict two indicators of threat perception failure: (1) whether the civilian was not attacking the officer(s) or other civilians just before being fatally shot and (2) whether the civilian was unarmed when fatally shot. The results indicated civilians from ¬“other¬” minority groups were significantly more likely than Whites to have not been attacking the officer(s) or other civilians and that Black civilians were more than twice as likely as White civilians to have been unarmed.
    We're making many claims about larger issues based on the Floyd killings. Seems like a lot of protestors and looters are too. This conversation isn't just about Floyd, so that's just silly (you know this of course). Personally, I don't think the Floyd killing tells us much other than that Chauvin is a murderous asshole that should not have been a cop, and that he seems to be getting prosecuted appropriately.

    My stats come from the same WP data you posted actually. Police killing of unarmed white men are about the same proportion as the the proportion of black men who are unarmed. Are you a twitter user? I'm concerned you're not actually reading the content of things, and just reading the coles notes. Read both the sources and my posts more closely, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    Ah yes in the year 2020 you still demand to have the concepts of systemic and institutional racism spoon fed to you like a baby.

    "Watch any of the thousands of well known and often award winning movies or documentaries? Fuck that. Read a book or article, including some that have been posted in this thread? Get fucked. Retain any info from any of the past dozens of times people have responded to this request in other threads? Fuck you. Put in the effort to point by point explain centuries of history, sociology and economics or you're a touchy feely hippy" - a truly honest participant in this debate
    I'm all against racism. Name me a current institution that has a policy of racism. Name me the policy. Feed it to me like a baby. I'll march with you to that institution and we'll confront it together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    I'm all against racism. Name me a current institution that has a policy of racism. Name me the policy. Feed it to me like a baby. I'll march with you to that institution and we'll confront it together.
    Do you think that in order for something to be racist or show racial bias, it has to be codified?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    I'm all against racism. Name me a current institution that has a policy of racism. Name me the policy. Feed it to me like a baby. I'll march with you to that institution and we'll confront it together.
    Current is tough... ALEC lost a lot of their corporate partners, but the laws they lobbied for in the past are still in place. Sure it’s not directly blatantly racist laws... like segregation, but you know... same end results. Hell, they have a former Nixon representative on record as to why the war on drugs was done the way it was.

    I guess you can look at this stuff as “unintentional consequences” though if you want. ie crack vs coke minimum sentencing, but yeah, the results are obvious at this point and what has been done to undo those consequences?

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    A system with an explicit policy that directly and intentionally creates a worse outcome based on race could be called a racist system. A system that has unintended side effects due to a large number of complex historical and environmental factors cannot be called racist. They are not the same thing. It’s inaccurate and unnecessarily inflammatory.

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    Damn, Candace Owens goes off on Facebook.

    https://www.facebook.com/realCandace...wOTA2Mjk3Mzkx/

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