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Thread: AMG to use F1 turbo technology in road cars

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    Default AMG to use F1 turbo technology in road cars

    https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021...etails-photos/

    F1's MGU-H, which is an electric motor installed between the compressor and turbine, is coming to road cars. Instantly spin up the turbo to any speed at low RPMS and off throttle to eliminate turbo lag, and recover energy at full throttle to limit compressor speed (basically acting as an energy recovering waste gate).

    MT thinks it's coming to 4 cylinders first, which on the road map looks to be the new C63 and updated versions of the 45 engine. Coupled with a hybrid drivetrain, that could mean a completely lag free 500+hp in a 2L 4 cylinder.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Equal parts awesome and disappointing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjblair View Post
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    Equal parts awesome and disappointing.
    When you realize that you may as well just go buy a Model 3 and install these on it and it'll sound better.


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    Is this any different than the 48V generator they use on the AMG GLE 53 outside of using a more powerful motor? I just don't think AMG cars will be the same without the V8 as that's their bread and butter. As an enthusiast I feel engine character matters to me as it adds to the drama of driving fast. 4-cylinder engines suck and electric motors while effective have no aural appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyD View Post
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    Is this any different than the 48V generator they use on the AMG GLE 53 outside of using a more powerful motor?
    Yes. The 53 has 2 systems.

    1. Electric supercharger. This is completely separate from he actual turbo itself. On demand, it spins up and compresses a small amount of air. That air is directed to the intake at low rpms for power, and directed to the exhaust turbine at higher rpms to spin the turbo up faster.

    2. Motor generator between engine and transmission. This charges the system when decelerating, and sends powers (up to 21hp) to torque fill even more, as well as reduce fuel consumption.

    The new e-turbo is the MGU-H setup in F1. This splits the compressor and turbine, and puts a motor/generator between the shaft that connects both sides. This replaces #1 completely. At any rpm, when you go on throttle, the motor will instantaneously spin up the compressor to the needed rpm, feeding compressed air instantly on throttle tip in so there's zero turbo lag. This also replaces the function of the waste gate (although the waste gate is there as backup in case this thing fails). It mimics the function of a waste gate by controlling boost and compressor speed by slowing down/maintaining shaft speed and generating electricity with the generator in between the compressor and turbine. In F1, at full throttle, the e-turbo MGU-H generates enough electricity to add 70hp to the electric motor at max boost. Basically recovering waste exhaust energy.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    Yes. The 53 has 2 systems.

    1. Electric supercharger. This is completely separate from he actual turbo itself. On demand, it spins up and compresses a small amount of air. That air is directed to the intake at low rpms for power, and directed to the exhaust turbine at higher rpms to spin the turbo up faster.

    2. Motor generator between engine and transmission. This charges the system when decelerating, and sends powers (up to 21hp) to torque fill even more, as well as reduce fuel consumption.

    The new e-turbo is the MGU-H setup in F1. This splits the compressor and turbine, and puts a motor/generator between the shaft that connects both sides. This replaces #1 completely. At any rpm, when you go on throttle, the motor will instantaneously spin up the compressor to the needed rpm, feeding compressed air instantly on throttle tip in so there's zero turbo lag. This also replaces the function of the waste gate (although the waste gate is there as backup in case this thing fails). It mimics the function of a waste gate by controlling boost and compressor speed by slowing down/maintaining shaft speed and generating electricity with the generator in between the compressor and turbine. In F1, at full throttle, the e-turbo MGU-H generates enough electricity to add 70hp to the electric motor at max boost. Basically recovering waste exhaust energy.
    This sounds completely awesome to me.
    Originally posted by SJW
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    This actually sounds like it would be a fun setup.

    Mercedes knows how to build fun 4 cylinder motors too.

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    I'd love it if they'd pair it with an I6 of some type. I know that's not really MB's thing though. It's mostly just the 4cyl that's off-putting for me, especially given how awesome their V8s are (were?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjblair View Post
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    I'd love it if they'd pair it with an I6 of some type. I know that's not really MB's thing though. It's mostly just the 4cyl that's off-putting for me, especially given how awesome their V8s are (were?).
    You (and a lot of people) have real hang-ups about the geometry of engines. I'll bet if you locked the hood and put a V8 badge on the fender people would be creaming thier jeans like a high school confidential.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    You (and a lot of people) have real hang-ups about the geometry of engines. I'll bet if you locked the hood and put a V8 badge on the fender people would be creaming thier jeans like a high school confidential.
    Honestly, it's more of a sound thing for me. V8 and I6 sound great. V6's almost never sound good. I4 only sounds good if it's in a sport bike and revs to 9 million RPM.

    I could go into weight distribution, compatibility with different AWD configurations, etc., but really that'd be significantly overreaching on my part. I just like loud noises.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjblair View Post
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    I'd love it if they'd pair it with an I6 of some type. I know that's not really MB's thing though. It's mostly just the 4cyl that's off-putting for me, especially given how awesome their V8s are (were?).
    I’m driving an AMG I6 hybrid right now. Guaranteed this will be used in this engine at some point to replace the existing electric compressor.

    Mercedes is ditching their V6 for the I6 this generation. All the 450s and 53s are I6 since 2020 MY.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    I’m driving an AMG I6 hybrid right now. Guaranteed this will be used in this engine at some point to replace the existing electric compressor.

    Mercedes is ditching their V6 for the I6 this generation. All the 450s and 53s are I6 since 2020 MY.
    Oh right right right. Idk how I forgot the 53 was an I6. Will the new 63 be a hopped up version of yours, and 73 will be V8 hybrid? and 43 I4 hybrid?

    Regardless, that's awesome they've got an I6 in the lineup that will probably be used for some time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cjblair View Post
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    Oh right right right. Idk how I forgot the 53 was an I6. Will the new 63 be a hopped up version of yours, and 73 will be V8 hybrid? and 43 I4 hybrid?

    Regardless, that's awesome they've got an I6 in the lineup that will probably be used for some time.
    73 is V8 PHEV for sure. New 63 is supposedly I4 Hybrid but who knows. 43 (V6) is mostly discontinued, just waiting on C and GLC next gen in MY2022 and MY2023. Not sure if the 43 name is retiring or what.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    I'm waiting for the E93 Estate.
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    Imagine if they could spin up the electric motor and somehow transfer the torque directly to the wheels. I know its crazy talk, please continue complicating reciprocating piston engines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    Not sure if the 43 name is retiring or what.
    Well, they just detuned the I6 and slap a 43 badge on the 4 door GT while 53 exist as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    You (and a lot of people) have real hang-ups about the geometry of engines. I'll bet if you locked the hood and put a V8 badge on the fender people would be creaming thier jeans like a high school confidential.
    It's no different than automatic vs DCT vs manual transmissions. They all accomplish the same task but there's differences between how they carry it out and pros and cons for each. Plenty of people have strong opinions about which one they prefer. V8+ engines sound the best and there's no replacement for displacement. Inline 6 engines have always been superior to V6 as they are simpler in design, produce less vibration, and sound much better. There's a reason the inline 6 is making a comeback. I've owned as many turbocharged 4 cylinder powered cars as anyone and while there are some good ones they are now pretty well all the same now with a bit of lag, big midrange, and power tapering off after 5k RPM and they all sound bad. If you put a V8 badge on a car with a 4 cylinder exhaust people will be making an awkward and confused face the moment you rev out the engine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtrema View Post
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    When you realize that you may as well just go buy a Model 3 and install these on it and it'll sound better.

    The hilarious part is many german cars have just as authentic of exhaust note.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtsniffer View Post
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    The hilarious part is many german cars have just as authentic of exhaust note.
    hah yep, my peasanty Golf R does. And ya know what, I like it now. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirtsniffer View Post
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    The hilarious part is many german cars have just as authentic of exhaust note.
    Yupp, fake exhaust and/or engine sound generators have been a thing now for a while on numerous vehicles - put your hand up if you're a beyond member with a vehicle that has electronic sound generators. You know you're out there, hell, some of you may not even know you're out there.

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