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Thread: Do People Actually Believe The World No Longer Needs Oil?

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    Default Do People Actually Believe The World No Longer Needs Oil?

    I just made the mistake of discovering the Alberta and Calgary subreddits.

    I'd consider myself to be a very environmentally conscious person but I am also realistic about the fact that the world consumes around 100 million bopd and that's not going to change anytime soon. I'm not "pro" oil and gas per se, but I do think Alberta is one of the most regulated and ethical producers in the world (which is concerning, in itself).

    I couldn't believe the amount of hate I receive for those views on Reddit. It seems that fossil fuels are no longer acceptable to the majority of people there whatsoever and that Alberta should shutter its oil and gas industry and "diversify the economy". I realize that Reddit is an echo chamber but I honestly don't see any way for Albertans to sustain their lifestyle or for the government to fund any social programs without energy revenues and jobs. I am unclear what Alberta could actually "diversify" into to replace direct and indirect revenues from O&G production to sustain its budgets.

    The majority of Alberta's revenues are currently from Income and other Taxes (~$22-23 billion). I would expect a large percentage of those taxes are paid by people or companies directly or indirectly compensated by Alberta's energy industry. The next revenue source (after transfer payments from the Feds back to Alberta) are ~$5-7 billion.

    Are there any realistic plans for how Albertans will maintain their quality of life without fossil fuel production?

    Given the UCP's mis-steps, populist movements, and the current state of global politics, I would not be surprised if the "Reddit mentality" drives the future of Alberta politics. I don't live in Alberta anymore but it's all a bit frightening to watch.

    Does anyone actually have a coherent plan for what Alberta would look like with the phase-out of O&G? Am I over-estimating the power of the Reddit demographic on the future of Alberta?

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    Its not necessarily that we don't need, its just that we might not need to expand it in the future.

    Building a pipeline that lasts for 20+ years might be a fallacy if demand only dictates that the USA or China starts moving to alternate forms of energy within ten years. They needed the oil for the energy to produce copper wire for electricity transmission, and now silicon ingots for solar panels, but one the electrical system is mature - even at a 1:1 carbon ratio for solar panels there are several inherent benefits to transitioning as fast as possible to self sustaining electricity. In essence, it will be good for the decade or two that enjoys the immediate benefit (Boomers and GenX) but the future generations will inherit wasted effort (IE: Boomers got man on the moon, all GenZ gets from it - is a house sized fuel bill for the Saturn rocket)

    The USA will have a very hard time transitioning to electricity just because of size. A grid does not work well over vast distances. However, plenty of European and Asian cities can start transitioning away from oil pretty much right away. Canada still needs the carbon for heating, USA still needs the carbon because they cannot transition easily. China? Goodbye oil.

    Kramer has already bailed on oil, its literally "tobacco". Meaning, sure it makes money - but that does not necessarily mean that the new generation will want to put money into it if they believe it is "morally bad" or "unhealthy" or even be useful when they hit old age. Can you charge the most important modern device, your cellphone - by dropping a teaspoon of oil in it? No.



    Assume that one could push 1/100th the carbon energy used, burned to produce Steel (2 Billion tons/year) but produce Silicon ingots for solar panels instead. How long would it take to shave them in sheets and produce enough to cover the area of Spain?

    Sand is cheaper than iron. Iron was $14 per ton for most of my life.
    Last edited by ZenOps; 06-30-2020 at 06:29 AM.
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    r/alberta is one of the worst places on the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidI View Post
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    I just made the mistake of discovering the Alberta and Calgary subreddits.

    I'd consider myself to be a very environmentally conscious person but I am also realistic about the fact that the world consumes around 100 million bopd and that's not going to change anytime soon. I'm not "pro" oil and gas per se, but I do think Alberta is one of the most regulated and ethical producers in the world (which is concerning, in itself).

    I couldn't believe the amount of hate I receive for those views on Reddit. It seems that fossil fuels are no longer acceptable to the majority of people there whatsoever and that Alberta should shutter its oil and gas industry and "diversify the economy". I realize that Reddit is an echo chamber but I honestly don't see any way for Albertans to sustain their lifestyle or for the government to fund any social programs without energy revenues and jobs. I am unclear what Alberta could actually "diversify" into to replace direct and indirect revenues from O&G production to sustain its budgets.

    The majority of Alberta's revenues are currently from Income and other Taxes (~$22-23 billion). I would expect a large percentage of those taxes are paid by people or companies directly or indirectly compensated by Alberta's energy industry. The next revenue source (after transfer payments from the Feds back to Alberta) are ~$5-7 billion.

    Are there any realistic plans for how Albertans will maintain their quality of life without fossil fuel production?

    Given the UCP's mis-steps, populist movements, and the current state of global politics, I would not be surprised if the "Reddit mentality" drives the future of Alberta politics. I don't live in Alberta anymore but it's all a bit frightening to watch.

    Does anyone actually have a coherent plan for what Alberta would look like with the phase-out of O&G? Am I over-estimating the power of the Reddit demographic on the future of Alberta?
    The Calgary and Alberta subs on Reddit are not by any means representative of the overall mood/feelings toward Alberta O&G, the Calgary sub is dominantly a fairly young demographic, some fairly educated, some not but most definitely a very heavy NDP mind think basis. Old farts like me (plus a select few other older beyond members) are the exception over there, there just aren't a lot of boomers or gen-X'ers actively participating there as most of them get frustrated with the childish antics of manynreddit members and just stay away.

    With respect to O&G, I've never been in the industry but I have lived in O&G country in Akberta for the entirety of my almost six decades on this big ball of dirt. Personally, I do not ever see the need for O&G completely disappearing - the demand may very well lessen but it'll never completely disappear. Fully electric vehicles still require mountains of various types of plastics plus some of them still require O&G based lubricants. Larger forms of transport such as marine shipping and locomotives (in North America) are still going to be powered by O&G.

    O&G will be here for quite a while, certainly I do not believe we'll ever see the booms we once did and those office towers in downtown Calgary will soon represent an era gone by. Yeah, people will still be employed in O&G for the foreseeable future but just not in the numbers we've seen in the past and not under the gravy rich contracts they've seen in the past. The days of double meat subs will not ever become rampant again for so many in that industry.

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    Reddit is a shithole, from the people to the format, avoid that place like the plague
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    Differences in thought between east and west:



    This is the brain of the Saturn rocket that stored 14KB of memory for the man on the moon missions. East: Can I melt that thing down to make 500 MicroSD cards that store 1TB of data each? West: Can I keep it, make everyone use it, and charge them money for it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 16hypen3sp View Post
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    r/alberta is one of the worst places on the internet.
    Yeah, it is not a place that is kind to those that might perchance have a different viewpoint other than the pervasive mindset that dominates that sub. If you are thick skinned enough, then it can be good for a laugh.

    The Calgary sub has good days and bad days but overall has become a more tolerant place, the mods there are doing a fairly good job of weeding out political discussions that should really debated in the Alberta sub but then you never see those discussions in the Alberta sub because of the bullies that are allowed to continue to be there and I say bullies because the Alberta mod team is not neutral by any means - anyone that might have a slightly different mindset from the group think in the Alberta sub will get bullied and the mods pretty much do nothing about it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by finboy View Post
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    Reddit is a shithole, from the people to the format, avoid that place like the plague
    So myself and other beyond members that are active on Reddit are shitholes then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by finboy View Post
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    Reddit is a shithole, from the people to the format, avoid that place like the plague
    Really, is this place a better format though? At least reddit admins aren't likely to anonymously leave "negative reps" along with petty insults if they don't like what you say.

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    And to add:

    I think its retarded to try and invent fusion power. It already exists, easily feeds 7 billion people, and is free. Its called the Sun. Join the sun worship you carbon heathens.

    Last edited by ZenOps; 06-30-2020 at 06:50 AM.
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    IRL I don't know a single person that thinks we as a society can get by without oil and gas. On the other hand, many seem to want to diversify but when asked for specifics they shrug their shoulders and say diversify again!

    If we look at Canada as a whole, it's obvious there is a large percentage that think we can just magically 'switch' to something else and O&G is 'over'.

    Whatever Ontario/Quebec thinks is what Canada gets.
    Last edited by msommers; 06-30-2020 at 06:55 AM.
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    Yes people really believe we can get rid of dino oil altogether, but there's also people who think vaccines are full of nanobots that will mind control you. Both of these these types of people are either mentally unstable, or severely misinformed.

    As for Reddit, there's less of them than you think, but trolls fucking love Reddit. You just have to not take downvotes seriously, and realize that most of the people you are arguing with are in fact trolls, or just contrarians.

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    Many, many people believe we don't need oil and for good reason, too. Just look how simple it is to make a piece of toast with a bicycle:


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    The power of the downvote and its affect on the psychology of reddit community members to conform to the hive mind can not be underestimated. These types of communities are no longer a places for free thought exchange. What perplexes you about r/alberta and r/calgary is the sense of self loathing to the point of disbelief.
    Last edited by phreezee; 06-30-2020 at 08:30 AM.

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    /r/alberta is a cesspool of trolls, /r/calgary is mainly 18 year old NDP voters who know everything about life and money grows on trees planted by their parents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePenIsMightier View Post
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    Many, many people believe we don't need oil and for good reason, too. Just look how simple it is to make a piece of toast with a bicycle:

    Hoakie video, could be set up to present whatever type of outcome you'd like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidI View Post
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    Does anyone actually have a coherent plan for what Alberta would look like with the phase-out of O&G? Am I over-estimating the power of the Reddit demographic on the future of Alberta?
    That's more echo chamber of the extreme left while Beyond tends to lean right. If you still believe simple demographic of left and right.

    We will need oil until end of time. But we won't need as much unless we find another way to use it that we have not think of yet or India or Africa can pull off same growth as China (which there are signs they can but unlikely quick enough).

    That in turn make it not an attractive investment or as attractive as investing in milk.
    Last edited by Xtrema; 06-30-2020 at 08:44 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01RedDX View Post
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    Really, is this place a better format though? At least reddit admins aren't likely to anonymously leave "negative reps" along with petty insults if they don't like what you say.
    Upvoting/rep is godawful, and sets up the perfect environment for groupthink. Threaded view is terrible, I will take the linear model over it every time. At least here you see unpopular opinions and the discussions that result from it, you *can* sort through reddit to get things in different ways, but default views and the laziness of most people lead to preaching to the choir and downvoting descent,

    Fuck reddit.
    Last edited by finboy; 06-30-2020 at 08:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedog View Post
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    Yeah, it is not a place that is kind to those that might perchance have a different viewpoint other than the pervasive mindset that dominates that sub. If you are thick skinned enough, then it can be good for a laugh.
    The users on r/alberta aren't even supporters of infrastructure build out.... something, something, fighting urban sprawl, something, something, they're all idiots.

    Unreal mentality on that board. Truly impressive amounts of stupidity.

    EDIT: The mods on r/alberta are also idiots. The whole place is just fucked.
    Last edited by 16hypen3sp; 06-30-2020 at 09:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Legit2Quit View Post
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    /r/alberta is a cesspool of trolls, /r/calgary is mainly 18 year old NDP voters who know everything about life and money grows on trees planted by their parents.
    So true. Both forums are a joke and if someone told me they were secretly populated by people from BC and lower mainland things would make so much more sense.

    I guess all the real albertans aren't on those forums but are out trying to actually make a living and live their lives haha

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    Even with the little time I spend on the calgary sub, I have most of the top marxist posters and even some of the mod team on r/calgary ignored. Completely clueless as to how the real world operates. A degree in sociology suddenly makes you an expert on every subject around.

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