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Thread: My 30 day challenge- quitting the erbs and mental health

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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Spilner View Post
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    Well ive tried doctors and a therapist and havent really gotten me anywhere... Really not sure who else to turn to. Ill try anything right about now.

    One thing ive already noticed is quitting the mary jane has benefitted my sleep.
    Yea dude, if I were in your shoes:

    1) Take a brief period of time off work. 10 days or so.

    2) Discontinue use of MJ, booze, and ativan. Follow proper phase-out.

    3) See doctor and get some tests to see if there's an imbalance or what

    4) Ask your doctor to refer you to a psychiatrist. You went to one a while ago. Find a new one.

    --

    For some, medication is appropriate. Others manage with passive/lifestyle changes.

    What concerns me is your reaction to stress is to use substances. That's not an abnormal reaction in that many people do that, but it is abnormal in that it prevents proper treatment of the cause. It's a painkiller and it sounds like a dependency may be there.

    In either case, my first priority would be to safely discontinue using substances. That's why I'd take the time off work, because who knows what the reaction will be and I'd want to minimize my professional requirements during that time. When I stopped using percocet after my back injury, I was getting night sweats/etc. for about a week. Thank god I worked from home because I wasn't getting a ton of sleep.

    Same when I discontinue pot for a while. Whenever I take 4-6 weeks off, there's always a week of shit sleep/etc.

    In either case, if the people you are currently talking to aren't properly addressing your needs (IE- writing a prescription vs. seeking baseline treatments first), go see other people. I've learned the hard way that you have to fight to find the right people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spike98 View Post
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    I would skip the naturopath and go to a mens health clinic. Actual medical doctors that look at hormonal optimization not some family doctor that says you are normal just because you are within range of an 18yr to 80yr old male. PM me if you are interested in mine.

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    I left out psychologist didn't I? Kinda like a counsellor with more education but not psychiatrist education.

    In other words, most counsellors are free/covered, psychologist is about 200$/hr, psychiatrist is 300 or possibly covered if you're in a program.

    Start with your GP is my overriding advice... Going other routes independent of those - is why you end up seeing the wrong person getting drugs that don't work.

    There's multiple walk-in (ok nowadays zoom) counselling available free of charge, you'll talk to them weekly or more. Make sure you sign the form so they can talk to and report to your doctor - let that GP do the prescribing, let him refer you to a psychiatrist if needed...

    It's amazing that it's really not explained anywhere as to how to get help and what roles individuals play... But no psychiatrist is going to say don't pay me 300$/hr you need a counsellor not me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
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    I left out psychologist didn't I? Kinda like a counsellor with more education but not psychiatrist education.

    In other words, most counsellors are free/covered, psychologist is about 200$/hr, psychiatrist is 300 or possibly covered if you're in a program.

    Start with your GP is my overriding advice... Going other routes independent of those - is why you end up seeing the wrong person getting drugs that don't work.

    There's multiple walk-in (ok nowadays zoom) counselling available free of charge, you'll talk to them weekly or more. Make sure you sign the form so they can talk to and report to your doctor - let that GP do the prescribing, let him refer you to a psychiatrist if needed...

    It's amazing that it's really not explained anywhere as to how to get help and what roles individuals play... But no psychiatrist is going to say don't pay me 300$/hr you need a counsellor not me.
    My GP referred me to a psychiatrist that was covered under provincial health plan.

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    I think if your GP is part of a "primary health network" they may have more access, or just more familiarity, to lots of these resources.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    I think if your GP is part of a "primary health network" they may have more access, or just more familiarity, to lots of these resources.
    With the covid changes - they should all be aware of the new addictions and mental health programs. It's kind of wild it took this to give the system a kick in the ass

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    Quote Originally Posted by A790 View Post
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    What, people like me that like to use evidence-based treatment vs. naturopathic bullshit that can't be proven? I don't give many fucks about criticism from someone I wouldn't put any value on getting advice from.

    Like fuck, the guy is talking about addressing mental health and you tell him to go see a naturopath? And then people like ME make you laugh? Please. I've worked in healthcare long enough and seen plenty of naturopaths that are "practically trained like MD's" scam their "patients" and delay access to appropriate treatment.

    I do agree re: your sentiment re: hormonal imbalance, though, which is why he should probably see a professional (doctor) to get that shit checked, then see a counselor or psychologist or something to help sort through the mental health side when he has a better understanding of the lay of the land.

    The dude is using multiple substances as a coping mechanism. Yes, he needs to see someone and take care of himself. Someone qualified.
    Naturopathic treatment IS evidenced based, but sorry you're bias is too strong for you to brush that off.
    https://www.webmd.com/balance/guide/...hic-medicine#1

    Every doctor I have ever seen always moves to a single answer - medication - "Well I'm not exactly sure if this is what's happening, but take this and let me know!"

    Fuck that noise.

    Most medical ailments will have a root cause- our bodies do a pretty fucking phenomenal job of fixing themselves when you enable to body to do so.
    This is the fundamental reason for seeing a naturopath vs MD.

    As for the mental side of things - Your mind does some pretty wild things (i.e stress response) when things are out of whack, which is why I mentioned possible Adrenal Fatigue as I have personally been dealing with a lot of what he mentioned as symptoms and my cortisol levels are WAY the fuck out, and my diagnosis is Adrenal Fatigue.
    I'm now in a much better headspace than I was a month ago with the treatment regimen I am on.


    My medical doctor didn't even consider testing, even when I asked for it.

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    oooh, a naturopath True Believer. Love it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    oooh, a naturopath True Believer. Love it.

    repped
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vengie View Post
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    Naturopathic treatment IS evidenced based, but sorry you're bias is too strong for you to brush that off.
    https://www.webmd.com/balance/guide/...hic-medicine#1

    Every doctor I have ever seen always moves to a single answer - medication - "Well I'm not exactly sure if this is what's happening, but take this and let me know!"

    Fuck that noise.

    Most medical ailments will have a root cause- our bodies do a pretty fucking phenomenal job of fixing themselves when you enable to body to do so.
    This is the fundamental reason for seeing a naturopath vs MD.

    As for the mental side of things - Your mind does some pretty wild things (i.e stress response) when things are out of whack, which is why I mentioned possible Adrenal Fatigue as I have personally been dealing with a lot of what he mentioned as symptoms and my cortisol levels are WAY the fuck out, and my diagnosis is Adrenal Fatigue.
    I'm now in a much better headspace than I was a month ago with the treatment regimen I am on.


    My medical doctor didn't even consider testing, even when I asked for it.
    Sounds like you need a new doctor dude, as your experience is very different than mine.

    Several points:

    1) The article you linked me to does not, at all, discuss whether or not naturopathy is effective. It states what it is used for. You should be clear in that it is not an endorsement for naturopathic "medicine".

    2) Interestingly enough, this is what I was able to find in eight seconds (emphasis mine):

    Timothy Caulfield, a professor of health law at the University of Alberta in Edmonton and a longtime skeptic of alternative medicine...The problem, Caulfield says, is that many of their treatments aren’t evidence-based. Homeopathy, for example, is based on the notion that tiny doses of a toxin can cure certain medical conditions — drinking small doses of pollen dissolved in large quantities of water to cure a pollen allergy, for example. But a large and growing body of research has found that homeopathy doesn’t work any better than a placebo.
    3) If you're not feeling WP or want to take issue with the Prof's bias (and who can blame you in today's media environment), let's look at what some evidence says:

    "The results showed that the duration of hospitalization was significantly greater than that of the comparison group of patients (cases from 263 German hospitals) receiving purely internal medical treatment in hospitals at national level."

    Granted, even WebMD says not to go there (naturopathy) for serious shit. But the problem is that evidence demonstrating many naturopathic approaches is... seriously lacking. Read the WebMD page you sent me thinking it was going to validate your stance. Nowhere does it say that natropathy works, is effective, or ideal for certain conditions. The closest it gets is "It's a good option for people who might not find relief for their chronic illness through traditional medicine."

    Interestingly, I was able to find journals in support, but they were also the same journal: The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine.

    4) I don't really disagree with you re: the role that non-"medical/prescriptive" treatment plays. I meet with a physiotherapist twice per week and have a massage therapy/refloxology session every two weeks. It's not like you need to take a pill to find relief. The thing is that treatments should be evidence-based, no?

    5) Advice to seek a naturopath for mental health with a dash of substance use is inappropriate. We aren't talking knee pain. We're talking a mix of substances, personalities, anxieties, and other circumstances.

    6) Clearly you won't be convinced, but hopefully, the OP has the perspective needed to make the right choices for them. There are people that swear by chiros, and others that think their quacks that sell MLM crap from their offices. Different strokes and all that.

    7) Lastly, and most importantly, OP: you are going to find that your path to contentment is varied and many who walk it will have contrasting experiences. See my above convergument with @vengie lol. If you think naturopathy has a place in your threatment, then bring it in to complement treatment that your doctor/specialists/family are working with you on.

    The reality is that this is a team effort. Your wife/kids included. Communication, honesty, and persistence will be how you find the right answers.

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    Haha what a classic beyond thread. A790 as typical brushes off someones suggestion as idiotic in a douchey comment, provides a bit of reasonable advice, writes 1000 words about his argument. Buster comes in with a hilariously relevant one liner / video. Rural Juror has at least a 5-6 post count in the thread. It checks all the boxes

    I have a great GP but when it came down to taking my health into my own hands and truly optimizing it, I had to do my own research on hormones, cortisol, vitamins and minerals, which a Naturopath who is much more attuned to optimizing health really helped me find the best tests to find all this out. Nothing against my GP, i still go see him yearly and get as many tests done as he'll let me within AHS's coverage.

    Naturopaths do provide value on top of regular doctors and anyone arguing this is fucking crazy - but at the same time some are right that some naturopaths are absolute quacks. Guess what, some GP's are also fucking garbage. Thinking every GP and every Naturopath in the world are the exact same and provide the same level of service / value.... it's not the 1930's where any doctors word is law anymore

    With symptoms like OP is having, most western med doctors are going to throw a whack of meds at him. Maybe it will help? Maybe it won't... sounds like he hasnt had much luck with them. It's a well know fact that marijuana use can increase cortisol levels, and this dudes been smoking weed forever. Panic attacks? Mad Anxiety? Yup sounds like cortisol issues. Cannabis can also tank you testosterone... when your T/E balance is off you can obviously contribute to mood issues... sounds like he has that too.

    In the end naturopath probably wouldn't be the worst place to start, but also not the best. Finding a mental health professional that works, plus like AndyL suggested a TRT clinic or doctor specializing in Hormone optimization is likely the best bet. Also a full fucking rundown of systems vitamins and minerals like... magnesium, vit d, vit b, selenium, etc and other critical male hormone support vitamins. Basically approach this as if you are deficient in everything so you know exactly where you stand.

    None of it will be cheap, but smoking weed for decades and the tough things OP went through aren't easy on the system.

    Congrats on working to find a step forward, I hope you find what works for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by spike98 View Post
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    When is the last time you had full bloodwork?

    I would be checking cortisol levels, thyroid, and testosterone. Many of your symptoms are also a symptom of low testosterone. Not just low to baseline. Low for optimal levels in your body. I know of folks that have almost carbon copy symptoms and they were resolved on TRT.

    I would skip the naturopath and go to a mens health clinic. Actual medical doctors that look at hormonal optimization not some family doctor that says you are normal just because you are within range of an 18yr to 80yr old male. PM me if you are interested in mine.
    Holy crap this got some movement while i was gone lol.

    Im currently getting blood work every 3 months for another issue, but ill have my wife look over what you're saying vs my blood test sheet.

    Also thanks for the referral, unfortunately I'm in Edmonton!
    Cereal Killer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by A790 View Post
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    Yea dude, if I were in your shoes:

    1) Take a brief period of time off work. 10 days or so.

    2) Discontinue use of MJ, booze, and ativan. Follow proper phase-out.

    3) See doctor and get some tests to see if there's an imbalance or what

    4) Ask your doctor to refer you to a psychiatrist. You went to one a while ago. Find a new one.

    --

    For some, medication is appropriate. Others manage with passive/lifestyle changes.

    What concerns me is your reaction to stress is to use substances. That's not an abnormal reaction in that many people do that, but it is abnormal in that it prevents proper treatment of the cause. It's a painkiller and it sounds like a dependency may be there.

    In either case, my first priority would be to safely discontinue using substances. That's why I'd take the time off work, because who knows what the reaction will be and I'd want to minimize my professional requirements during that time. When I stopped using percocet after my back injury, I was getting night sweats/etc. for about a week. Thank god I worked from home because I wasn't getting a ton of sleep.

    Same when I discontinue pot for a while. Whenever I take 4-6 weeks off, there's always a week of shit sleep/etc.

    In either case, if the people you are currently talking to aren't properly addressing your needs (IE- writing a prescription vs. seeking baseline treatments first), go see other people. I've learned the hard way that you have to fight to find the right people.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Thanks, and just my luck i only have 3 or 4 things booked over the next 10 days. so time for some rest! Also im 100% not touching any substances for a while, today will be day 1 of the no ativan. I can already tell that my sleep is getting better, and thats a huge step forward for me. I knew munching out and drinking copious amounts of water from 6-10pm was affecting it, but not to this extent.
    Cereal Killer.
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    Also really hoping this thread doesnt turn into a him vs him circus. The last thing i want is someone that has the same issues as me to come here and get sidetracked on another topic. All options should be explored.

    If it comes down to it, maybe have a second thread on Medical Dr vs Naturopathic Dr. and you guys can go hard in there, Ill even link it in the OP/.

    But i do appreciate all the helping comments that are coming in. And i will contact my family Dr to see what he says. To be honest i cant even remember who recommended the first psychiatrist. I think i was using another Dr through that stage.
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    Maybe @A790 can split the homeopathic dr thread off into another thread called homeopathy quackery or placebo?

    I'm pretty sure he has that power around here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyL View Post
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    Maybe @A790 can split the homeopathic dr thread off into another thread called homeopathy quackery or placebo?

    I'm pretty sure he has that power around here.
    I recommend that @A790 split it into 10 threads, and then split one of those threads into 10 threads, and then split one of those threads into 10 threads.

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    lol nah I'm not going to keep soapboxing after @riander5 's excellent takedown. #respect

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    You are a smart guy, but i feel like you want to argue with people sometimes haha. I think every point you made outside of the naturopath bashing was legit.

    Anyways hopefully OP gets some value out of everything everyone posted (/ argued about haha)

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    Quote Originally Posted by A790 View Post
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    Sounds like you need a new doctor dude, as your experience is very different than mine.

    Several points:

    1) The article you linked me to does not, at all, discuss whether or not naturopathy is effective. It states what it is used for. You should be clear in that it is not an endorsement for naturopathic "medicine".

    2) Interestingly enough, this is what I was able to find in eight seconds (emphasis mine):



    3) If you're not feeling WP or want to take issue with the Prof's bias (and who can blame you in today's media environment), let's look at what some evidence says:

    "The results showed that the duration of hospitalization was significantly greater than that of the comparison group of patients (cases from 263 German hospitals) receiving purely internal medical treatment in hospitals at national level."

    Granted, even WebMD says not to go there (naturopathy) for serious shit. But the problem is that evidence demonstrating many naturopathic approaches is... seriously lacking. Read the WebMD page you sent me thinking it was going to validate your stance. Nowhere does it say that natropathy works, is effective, or ideal for certain conditions. The closest it gets is "It's a good option for people who might not find relief for their chronic illness through traditional medicine."

    Interestingly, I was able to find journals in support, but they were also the same journal: The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine.

    4) I don't really disagree with you re: the role that non-"medical/prescriptive" treatment plays. I meet with a physiotherapist twice per week and have a massage therapy/refloxology session every two weeks. It's not like you need to take a pill to find relief. The thing is that treatments should be evidence-based, no?

    5) Advice to seek a naturopath for mental health with a dash of substance use is inappropriate. We aren't talking knee pain. We're talking a mix of substances, personalities, anxieties, and other circumstances.

    6) Clearly you won't be convinced, but hopefully, the OP has the perspective needed to make the right choices for them. There are people that swear by chiros, and others that think their quacks that sell MLM crap from their offices. Different strokes and all that.

    7) Lastly, and most importantly, OP: you are going to find that your path to contentment is varied and many who walk it will have contrasting experiences. See my above convergument with @vengie lol. If you think naturopathy has a place in your threatment, then bring it in to complement treatment that your doctor/specialists/family are working with you on.

    The reality is that this is a team effort. Your wife/kids included. Communication, honesty, and persistence will be how you find the right answers.
    Not going to get into it too much as Riander5 covered it well, and I gave him props for it.

    Naturopaths are not quacks, they may have been at one point, but they provide very legitimate treatment.

    in my life I am personally 3/3 working with a naturopath for issues a doctor wanted to medicate.

    As I said before the body itself is super fucking powerful when you enable it to heal itself.

    Naturopaths deal with root cause analysis, MD's deal with symptoms.


    I'm now leaving this thread. Op as mentioned, best of luck.

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    Small update after the first few days. Sleeping like a princess the last few days. I've had 3 days of pretty much perfect sleep, something I haven't had in years.

    Looks like I've already made the decision to not go back. I was delusional thinking smoking was helping me calm down and helping me sleep.

    I've canceled my appointment with the dr, I'm extremely curious to see how much this will benefit me. I'd rather do one thing at a time then try a couple different things. After the 30 days the wife and I will figure out the next step.
    Cereal Killer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.Spilner View Post
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    Small update after the first few days. Sleeping like a princess the last few days. I've had 3 days of pretty much perfect sleep, something I haven't had in years.

    Looks like I've already made the decision to not go back. I was delusional thinking smoking was helping me calm down and helping me sleep.

    I've canceled my appointment with the dr, I'm extremely curious to see how much this will benefit me. I'd rather do one thing at a time then try a couple different things. After the 30 days the wife and I will figure out the next step.
    Congrats, hope it continues.

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