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    Default Government providing sector-specific supports for businesses

    So the worldwide disruption caused by Covid19 has hammered most businesses, but some sectors more than others.

    What's everyone's opinions on the benefits of governments providing supports (of any kind) that target those sectors specifically?

    Restaurants, Airlines, other Hospitality and tourism business, yoga studios etc....

    I have a philosophical distaste for targeted government actions but I'd be open to learning more.
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    What really sparked this conversation is a chat a had with a buddy who suggested that both WestJet and air Canada coukd "dissappear" if travel remains restricted and no government support is provided. That is troubling, because I think Canadians benefit from having two healthy national airlines. However, I wonder if the cost of any support would be far higher than the benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    From what I understand, Air Canada and West Jet are similar to the Post Office in that they often need government injections or keeping out competition in order to continue to service areas that are not profitable. The question is, at what point (or do we ever) say "move somewhere that isn't bullshit" and just let those communities figure it out. I think this is going to be a huge question moving into the future for us and the US. There's a lot of areas that will never be viable again, but the property and house are the only things of value these people have.

    As for your original question, what is the argument against targeted government spending?

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    Government picking winners and losers in business is why I hate Government. Well taxes too. And JT. And most of them. Fuck our system of Government is broken.
    Originally posted by SJW
    Once again another useless post by JRSCOOLDUDE.
    Originally posted by snowcat
    Don't let the e-thugs and faggots get to you when they quote your posts and write stupid shit.
    Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
    I say stupid shit all the time.
    ^^ Fact Checked

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRSC00LUDE View Post
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    Government picking winners and losers in business is why I hate Government. Well taxes too. And JT. And most of them. Fuck our system of Government is broken.
    Exactly...

    Everywhere else in the world, COVID-19 relief has been focused on their economy (and as a result, their people). In Canada the focus has been strictly on direct support to the people and not the economy. It's been a political move to keep support for the current government with everything that's been going on.

    I know you can't really compare the US to Canada as far as COVID-19 goes, but a recent report I saw ~15 days ago reported that household wealth in the US is at an all time high, while house hold wealth in Canada was at an all time low. The reason, the US government has focused on economic stimulus (to keep businesses going, keep employees working, keep people earning paychecks and spending), while Canada has directly been cutting cheque's to Canadians, skipping the economy. Canadian's have used the money to pay bills, pay off debt, and haven't re-injected the funds in to the economy.

    The example above re: airlines, we have some of the highest taxes in the world (we can thank voters for allowing this). It costs a fortune to fly anywhere in Canada, mostly because of taxation. There's the existing taxation structure and fees that have been in place forever, along with new taxes that are being implemented every year, such as the carbon tax. The cost to fly is HUGE mostly due to taxes. This makes less people fly for leisure, less for business, less in general. As mentioned above the airlines constantly need handouts because of this, also to serve areas that are expensive to serve. If we didn't have these taxes there would be inexpensive flights, resulting in more travel, more planes, more national business (people travelling for business).

    Almost all of my business this year has been 80% US customers, 10% UK, and 10% AUS/NZ. The companies in those places are growing, spending money on technology to adapt to COVID-19 and the new ways business is done, they are hiring staff, etc... Meanwhile, Canada is in panic mode and every business is still cutting costs, laying off, etc.

    I don't know if the current government thinks things will change on their own or if they are waiting until support is necessary so they can take stake in the companies that have survived up to this point (nationalize)...

    It's just so night/day different, and everyone I talk to locally thinks the rest of the world is experiencing the same economic downfall as us, but they aren't... It's only us (and maybe a couple other countries).
    Last edited by Zhariak; 10-21-2020 at 09:43 AM.
    Sig was pwned by Moderator!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhariak View Post
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    Exactly...

    Everywhere else in the world, COVID-19 relief has been focused on their economy (and as a result, their people). In Canada the focus has been strictly on direct support to the people and not the economy. It's been a political move to keep support for the current government with everything that's been going on.

    I know you can't really compare the US to Canada as far as COVID-19 goes, but a recent report I saw ~15 days ago reported that household wealth in the US is at an all time high, while house hold wealth in Canada was at an all time low. The reason, the US government has focused on economic stimulus (to keep businesses going, keep employees working, keep people earning paychecks and spending), while Canada has directly been cutting cheque's to Canadians, skipping the economy. Canadian's have used the money to pay bills, pay off debt, and haven't re-injected the funds in to the economy.

    The example above re: airlines, we have some of the highest taxes in the world (we can thank voters for allowing this). It costs a fortune to fly anywhere in Canada, mostly because of taxation. There's the existing taxation structure and fees that have been in place forever, along with new taxes that are being implemented every year, such as the carbon tax. The cost to fly is HUGE mostly due to taxes. This makes less people fly for leisure, less for business, less in general. As mentioned above the airlines constantly need handouts because of this, also to serve areas that are expensive to serve. If we didn't have these taxes there would be inexpensive flights, resulting in more travel, more planes, more national business (people travelling for business).

    Almost all of my business this year has been 80% US customers, 10% UK, and 10% AUS/NZ. The companies in those places are growing, spending money on technology to adapt to COVID-19 and the new ways business is done, they are hiring staff, etc... Meanwhile, Canada is in panic mode and every business is still cutting costs, laying off, etc.

    I don't know if the current government thinks things will change on their own or if they are waiting until support is necessary so they can take steak in the companies that have survived up to this point (nationalize)...

    It's just so night/day different, and everyone I talk to locally thinks the rest of the world is experiencing the same economic downfall as us, but they aren't... It's only us (and maybe a couple other countries).
    JT is actively moving our country towards socialism.

    Most Canadians in general are not capable of understanding the long term impacts this will have.
    They see $2000/month deposited in their accounts monthly for doing nothing and are living on cloud 9.

    When they announce an election today, I fully expect all these burnouts and deadbeats to come flocking to the polls to vote Ol' JT into a majority for fear of losing their short term gravy train.

    /We're Fucked

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    Restaurants for sure could use some help, that industry is tough enough normally. Hotels are massive massive corporations and will survive this no sweat, they shouldn't get a dime. And as mentioned airlines taking koney from the gov is no different that "the before times".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonito View Post
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    As for your original question, what is the argument against targeted government spending?
    I guess the main argument is twofold.
    1) the money is inefficient because some portion ends up enriching corporate or political insiders and only a fraction is used for actual business survival / wages etc.
    2) Government spending increases taxes, so spending money to benefit citizens just means citizens end up paying for it, and the average taxpayer is better off with lower government spending.
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhariak View Post
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    Exactly...

    Everywhere else in the world, COVID-19 relief has been focused on their economy (and as a result, their people). In Canada the focus has been strictly on direct support to the people and not the economy. It's been a political move to keep support for the current government with everything that's been going on.

    I know you can't really compare the US to Canada as far as COVID-19 goes, but a recent report I saw ~15 days ago reported that household wealth in the US is at an all time high, while house hold wealth in Canada was at an all time low. The reason, the US government has focused on economic stimulus (to keep businesses going, keep employees working, keep people earning paychecks and spending), while Canada has directly been cutting cheque's to Canadians, skipping the economy. Canadian's have used the money to pay bills, pay off debt, and haven't re-injected the funds in to the economy.

    The example above re: airlines, we have some of the highest taxes in the world (we can thank voters for allowing this). It costs a fortune to fly anywhere in Canada, mostly because of taxation. There's the existing taxation structure and fees that have been in place forever, along with new taxes that are being implemented every year, such as the carbon tax. The cost to fly is HUGE mostly due to taxes. This makes less people fly for leisure, less for business, less in general. As mentioned above the airlines constantly need handouts because of this, also to serve areas that are expensive to serve. If we didn't have these taxes there would be inexpensive flights, resulting in more travel, more planes, more national business (people travelling for business).

    Almost all of my business this year has been 80% US customers, 10% UK, and 10% AUS/NZ. The companies in those places are growing, spending money on technology to adapt to COVID-19 and the new ways business is done, they are hiring staff, etc... Meanwhile, Canada is in panic mode and every business is still cutting costs, laying off, etc.

    I don't know if the current government thinks things will change on their own or if they are waiting until support is necessary so they can take stake in the companies that have survived up to this point (nationalize)...

    It's just so night/day different, and everyone I talk to locally thinks the rest of the world is experiencing the same economic downfall as us, but they aren't... It's only us (and maybe a couple other countries).
    Not sure how you're getting to this analysis, much of the US stimulus went straight to people - more than $4K/month. Same with most other places.

    The entire global economy has been devastated, it will take at least five years to get GDP back to where it was. Problem now is that countries' debt loads are far higher so higher interest rates are now a real concern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRSC00LUDE View Post
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    Government picking winners and losers in business is why I hate Government. Well taxes too. And JT. And most of them. Fuck our system of Government is broken.
    /thread
    "Masked Bandit is a gateway drug for frugal spending." - Unknown303

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    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/pol...1_5124537.html

    Justin has sent more money internationally $400M and probably more. This could have gone to struggling Canadians or Canadian companies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr2mike View Post
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    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/pol...1_5124537.html

    Justin has sent more money internationally $400M and probably more. Struggling Canadians and Canadian companies can each pay more income taxes for the next couple decades it's no big deal we have too much.
    ftfy
    Originally posted by SJW
    Once again another useless post by JRSCOOLDUDE.
    Originally posted by snowcat
    Don't let the e-thugs and faggots get to you when they quote your posts and write stupid shit.
    Originally posted by JRSC00LUDE
    I say stupid shit all the time.
    ^^ Fact Checked

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr2mike View Post
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    https://beta.ctvnews.ca/national/pol...1_5124537.html

    Justin has sent more money internationally $400M and probably more. This could have gone to struggling Canadians or Canadian companies.
    What's $400 million when they've spent an additional $250 billion?

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    Anyone get a sense of how the great Roman empire fell??

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    I've heard of a single case where a government grant awarded to a company allowed a friend to get rehired at an old job, but it had to be full-time. I can only imagine this is more towards an exception than a norm.
    @Zhariak 's take on the global situation is interesting and nearly the opposite of what I expected. Perhaps it's time to move to Europe or Down Unda' (will never live in the US).
    Ultracrepidarian

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtraSlow View Post
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    I guess the main argument is twofold.
    1) the money is inefficient because some portion ends up enriching corporate or political insiders and only a fraction is used for actual business survival / wages etc.
    2) Government spending increases taxes, so spending money to benefit citizens just means citizens end up paying for it, and the average taxpayer is better off with lower government spending.
    Item 1 is pretty standard complaint. Actual rules attached to the money could help, but that requires faith the adminstration will actually apply and enforce. Take that for what its worth

    Item 2 is pretty much what I was rambling about before, how much should we care about the fringe cases in terms of financing. 90% of us would be better off if airfare was a free for all to go to and from the popular destinations and lower taxes to not subsidize trips to barren wastelands like Nunavut or Saskatoon. At what point do we tell the other 10% too bad so sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr2mike View Post
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    Anyone get a sense of how the great Roman empire fell??
    Inflation and the Visigoths?

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    Quote Originally Posted by msommers View Post
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    @Zhariak 's take on the global situation is interesting and nearly the opposite of what I expected. Perhaps it's time to move to Europe or Down Unda' (will never live in the US).
    That's because it's just one guy's take. GDP has gone down for everyone:


    While it's true that US isn't as bad as Canada, they have been impacted quite significantly.

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    Airline workers request assistance : https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/avi...-aid-1.5770398
    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    You realize you are talking to the guy who made his own furniture out of salad bowls right?

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    The travel industry needs rapid testing, not cash.

    Lift the 14 day quarantine and people will travel. Get rid of the maritime bubble with rapid testing, WS and AC will fly there again.

    My kids have a week off in November. Hawaii is open. I would fly to Hawaii for a week and even transit through the US to take an approved test in order to enjoy the beach for a week. The only reason I am not going is because my kids will have Quarantine for 14 days and basically miss 2 weeks of school because we don't have rapid testing. 2 weeks off of school isn't acceptable to me.

    I work from home, so 2 weeks doing the same thing I am doing now doesn't make a difference.

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