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Thread: 2020 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    Every other sport had reasonable mechanisms for ensuring that competitive balance is a priority. F1 hasn't figured that out yet.
    Well F1 has done a lot in trying to slow down Mercedes, but somehow the rule changes affect them less than other teams. They just have a strong package in every area minimizing any changes coming down their way. From banning FRIC suspension on the mechanical grip side, to oil burning on the engine side, to multiple aero rules to take out downforce, they seem to be able to out develop other teams. Hell it took Ferrari using illegal engines to level the playing field, and what happens next? Mercedes figures out how to duplicate that power level without cheating. Their engineering prowess is just better.

    I guess the only thing left is cost cap, but the big 3 teams (Mercedes RBR and Ferrari) are pretty much spending the same amount, so maybe rbr and Ferrari can be more efficient when spend gets drastically reduced? Who knows.

    People ask for equivalency formulas, punish the top teams performance by reducing power, or adding weight. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports, and should reward the best engineers and the best drivers. Sure it’ll make the show more interesting, but every champion would have an asterisk because they might not be the best.

    I dunno how f1 can fix team dominance properly. I’d love to see McLaren fight with the big guys, but to unseat Mercedes seems to be an impossible task at this point.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Ya, I have no idea how to do it.

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    Maybe it's because I'm still new to F1, but judging from the times we get to hear their radios, guys like Max and Norris have a tendency to get panicky during a race when things don't go their way. This week it was Max complaining that the battery isn't charging fast enough. I think it was last week that Norris complaining about a mid-race issue with the power unit and getting chapped at his team when they suggested a way around it (although that didn't work either).

    Hamilton, in contrast, seems a lot more even keel. Even when he complains about tires, it's in a calm manner. Or when his radio was telling him his delta was too big during the safety car that Hamilton told him to relax. Granted, Hamilton probably has more go his way than not, so maybe I just don't hear those instances very often.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    Well F1 has done a lot in trying to slow down Mercedes, but somehow the rule changes affect them less than other teams. They just have a strong package in every area minimizing any changes coming down their way. From banning FRIC suspension on the mechanical grip side, to oil burning on the engine side, to multiple aero rules to take out downforce, they seem to be able to out develop other teams. Hell it took Ferrari using illegal engines to level the playing field, and what happens next? Mercedes figures out how to duplicate that power level without cheating. Their engineering prowess is just better.

    I guess the only thing left is cost cap, but the big 3 teams (Mercedes RBR and Ferrari) are pretty much spending the same amount, so maybe rbr and Ferrari can be more efficient when spend gets drastically reduced? Who knows.

    People ask for equivalency formulas, punish the top teams performance by reducing power, or adding weight. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsports, and should reward the best engineers and the best drivers. Sure it’ll make the show more interesting, but every champion would have an asterisk because they might not be the best.

    I dunno how f1 can fix team dominance properly. I’d love to see McLaren fight with the big guys, but to unseat Mercedes seems to be an impossible task at this point.
    The Germans are just good at building things. Facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    The benefit of masks is not known at this time. But we do know it is some non-trivial amount more than zero.

    We also know that the cost of mask use is, essentially, zero.

    So the cost:benefit of mask use is approaching infinity. I'll take that every time. And every time I see someone without a mask, I think they are stupid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    Maybe it's because I'm still new to F1, but judging from the times we get to hear their radios, guys like Max and Norris have a tendency to get panicky during a race when things don't go their way. This week it was Max complaining that the battery isn't charging fast enough. I think it was last week that Norris complaining about a mid-race issue with the power unit and getting chapped at his team when they suggested a way around it (although that didn't work either).

    Hamilton, in contrast, seems a lot more even keel. Even when he complains about tires, it's in a calm manner. Or when his radio was telling him his delta was too big during the safety car that Hamilton told him to relax. Granted, Hamilton probably has more go his way than not, so maybe I just don't hear those instances very often.
    F1 drivers love to whine. Max's battery charging issue wasn't anything new. RBR and Honda had already said their ERS system wasn't as good as others, and they're not getting enough charge for full deployment around this track. Just want to point it out for lolz and for everyone to know it's never their fault. Norris isn't that bad, but yea, he does sound like a dick when he gets into any incidents.

    Hamilton's radio I swear are all trolling. Who the fuck complains about cramps, tires not feeling good, car not feeling good, then reel off 4 fastest laps in a row? I guess the last race where he got severely penalized (Russia, after his 10s penalty in pits), you can hear Hamilton rattled and swearing on the radio.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    I dunno how f1 can fix team dominance properly. I’d love to see McLaren fight with the big guys, but to unseat Mercedes seems to be an impossible task at this point.
    It would be interesting if they just gave everyone the same engine block and turbos and got rid of all the other rules and implemented a budget cap that all teams must adhere to. That way, if teams want to develop better aero they can spend their money on that but will have a worse engine package. If they want to blow all their money on making the highest powered engine they can do that but their aero package would suffer. You did say it is the pinnacle of motorsports, so why all the rules. It would also make racing interesting I think, having manufactures who pushed the limit to much on the engine side and causing reliability issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    Every other sport had reasonable mechanisms for ensuring that competitive balance is a priority. F1 hasn't figured that out yet.
    Maybe F1 is not what you after. It was not designed to be a spec series. Execution and innovation matter.

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    Magnesson complained about a headache from hard up shifts, the onboard camera didn’t look to bad. Basically said he would man up and deal with it. Then retired a few laps later. I watched the post race show I didn’t notice a explanation for why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
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    Magnesson complained about a headache from hard up shifts, the onboard camera didn’t look to bad. Basically said he would man up and deal with it. Then retired a few laps later. I watched the post race show I didn’t notice a explanation for why.
    David Coulthard once described upshifts feeling like a jackhammer to your body. Ya if you got a migraine, definitely would suck haha.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chandler_Racing View Post
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    Maybe F1 is not what you after. It was not designed to be a spec series. Execution and innovation matter.
    Execution and innovation don't matter that much. F1 has a zillion rules to try to contain costs and be competitive. They just suck at it.

    I don't care what F1 does one way or the other, my point is that if F1 allows the outcomes of their races to be un-interesting to fans, they have a real problem from a business perspective.

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    That's a bunch of nonsense. A 20KG ballast could be added to the winning team each race and very quickly we would see a shift in the Mercedes domination.

    There have been major changes to provide some balance (FRIC, DAS, Engine Modes, double diffuser, mass dampers, etc.) some for cost others rule driven. These have worked to reduce their advantage but have not shifted the scales.

    That's because of Mercedes ability to execute and innovate year in and out (with a healthy budget too).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chandler_Racing View Post
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    That's a bunch of nonsense. A 20KG ballast could be added to the winning team each race and very quickly we would see a shift in the Mercedes domination.
    That depends if you want to see F1 as entertainment, or as a sport. Penalizing winners really kills sporting value and hard work of the teams.

    I'm old school, and see F1 as a competition to see who is the smartest and most talented. I've had to sit through Ferrari dominance through the no passing era. Words can't describe the pain through those years. My team still sucks (but sucks less this year) and I'm still here loving every minute of it. But yea, for the health of F1 and newer fans, we definitely have to ensure it's entertaining for people not like me since I'm the exception. Selfishly, I don't want to see winning teams penalized and turned into purely entertainment spectacle. Hope whatever happens a good balance is struck to not make a mockery of engineering and driving talent.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    Hasn't BOP in WEC been a shitshow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    That depends if you want to see F1 as entertainment, or as a sport. Penalizing winners really kills sporting value and hard work of the teams.

    I'm old school, and see F1 as a competition to see who is the smartest and most talented. I've had to sit through Ferrari dominance through the no passing era. Words can't describe the pain through those years. My team still sucks (but sucks less this year) and I'm still here loving every minute of it. But yea, for the health of F1 and newer fans, we definitely have to ensure it's entertaining for people not like me since I'm the exception. Selfishly, I don't want to see winning teams penalized and turned into purely entertainment spectacle. Hope whatever happens a good balance is struck to not make a mockery of engineering and driving talent.
    F1 for me was not solely designed to entertain fans and I'm with you the smartest and most talented should win. The entertainment comes in the complexity and nuances of what it takes to win.

    The concept of two rule books is concerning for me as a purist. I'm ok with normalization (removing/limiting dominate features) but changes that can with a high probability of success choose winners is not the right path.

    Having Mercedes run ballast or 90% of last years aero testing (70% in 2022) is unfortunate and not the way I want to see them lose.

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    What needs to be done is removal of the optimization process that the top teams have the staff and money for. Less data. Whats separating the top teams from the middle is not that far off.

    The top 3 literally have people that specialize and optimize the airflow that comes out of the wheels for brake cooling, aero etc, thats then further optimized to specific tracks at specific conditions at specific places on the grid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chandler_Racing View Post
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    That's a bunch of nonsense. A 20KG ballast could be added to the winning team each race and very quickly we would see a shift in the Mercedes domination.

    There have been major changes to provide some balance (FRIC, DAS, Engine Modes, double diffuser, mass dampers, etc.) some for cost others rule driven. These have worked to reduce their advantage but have not shifted the scales.

    That's because of Mercedes ability to execute and innovate year in and out (with a healthy budget too).
    It depends on what your goals are. If your goals are to reward innovation, then you have to reduce the quality of the racing. If your goals are to reward the fan with competitive racing and reward the best driving talent, then you need to reduce innovation. Entertainment value and a focus on innovation aren't quite mutually exclusive, but having both at the same time seems to be rare.

    My theory is that Europeans don't have the more refined leagues that NA has like NBA/NHL/NFL/MLB that have put a focus on competition as the source of fan engagement (and subsequently revenue). Europeans are okay with soccer and F1. Nothing wrong with that, but north americans prefer excitement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rage2 View Post
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    I was watching all the lap timings live, Hamilton at the point of the VSC was already ahead of the pit window (assuming clean stop). Stopping without VSC would have put him 1.5s ahead. He was in traffic and knocking off 3/10s a lap away from Bottas. In clean air, over 1/2 second a lap. Passing Bottas was inevitable, the VSC just made it happen earlier.

    But ya, that VSC looked oddly suspicious lol.

    If Kimi waited a little more to pit under SC, would’ve been different. His lap times didn’t look that bad.
    Oh for sure. I guess Merc knew about Bottas's aero/pace issues around lap 2 so it was clear what was going on when they extended lewis.

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    Id say the Merc dominance can be largely summed up by budget size, which explains why they can afford to have techs for a certain part, or the data analytics, or the logistics. Which is why F1/FIA have been looking at a budget cap for years

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    Quote Originally Posted by OTown View Post
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    Id say the Merc dominance can be largely summed up by budget size, which explains why they can afford to have techs for a certain part, or the data analytics, or the logistics. Which is why F1/FIA have been looking at a budget cap for years
    Ferrari has the same budget as Mercedes, some years higher. What does that say about Ferrari?

    It’s rhetorical but feel free to answer because reading it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
    Originally posted by SEANBANERJEE
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    I'd venture a guess that if all the teams were rated by points per year, by dollar spent per year - that ferrari would be down in the bottom.

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