Who is getting the COVID-19 Vaccine?

[Xtrema]

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I hear this argument a lot and it is misleading.
The UK is a island smaller than Alberta with a very high population. Sixty six million to be more precise. More people to deliver the accine and more people to admisiter it. Alberta has a population of 4.3 Million spread out.
Canada is not just a country, it is also a very very big continent.

Ours is a supply problem. We have administering every dose we can get our hands on. Our logistic is surprisingly effective.

https://ipolitics.ca/2021/02/02/nova...ter-this-year/

Novavax to be manufactured in Montreal but it probably won't happen until fall. If working as planned, it's supposed to pump out 2M doses/month. So it's better than nothing.

[tonytiger55]

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I would argue that your take is more misleading. There's nearly no one (if not literally no one) in this country that can't get to a doctor/pharmacy/clinic within a day - realistically probably much less than a day - to go get vaccinated. And between doctors, nurses, pharmacists, and whoever else can do it, we have a shitload of people capable of delivering the vaccine.

So do you think a sparsely populated country can vaccinate at the same rate as densely populated one?

[killramos]

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So do you think a sparsely populated country can vaccinate at the same rate as densely populated one?

I think our ability to administer vaccines is so far from being the critical path it’s not even worth discussing.

[bjstare]

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So do you think a sparsely populated country can vaccinate at the same rate as densely populated one?

Not necessarily any sparsely populated country, but ours specifically? Yes, I absolutely think that we can vaccinate at the same rate. We might even be faster because people won't be tripping over each other at the door.

I'd guess we have the same (if not more) locations where people can get vaccinated, on a per-capita basis.

[Xtrema]

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So do you think a sparsely populated country can vaccinate at the same rate as densely populated one?

Yes. Because it's the edges that are tough. 82% of Canadian lives in cities with the same medical infrastructure as London or Liverpool.

And shipping of anything can reach cities within a day or 2.

The last 18% will be tough but if they don't live in the cities, they are not in huge risk anyway.

In 2020, AB administered 600k flu shots in 10 days and gave everyone who wanted one before Christmas.

If AZ is available, that's the rate I would expect we can vaccinate at.

[tonytiger55]

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I think our ability to administer vaccines is so far from being the critical path it’s not even worth discussing.

Who's arguing about the Critical path? Im not.

I was addressing Extra Slows post. If we are going to compare. I dont think it is unreasonable to think we should compare apples to apples. I think that is a fair argument. The UK has a very established pharmaceutical industry and a high population base.

Lets break it down. If 600,000 vaccines are produced in the UK. They can be shipped anywhere in the UK within a few hours and administered.

If 600k vaccines are produced in Quebec. We can vaccinate 600,000 people out east in a day. You are not going to vaccinate the west side of Canada in a day. Logistics don't work like that. Those vaccines have to be put on a airplane.. Flown five hours (longer if on a truck). Then distributed out to the cities and boonies. Then from that point. Yes people can get to a Doctor/Pharmacy to get a jab at the same rate.
If all parts being equal then yes. Logistics dont work like that. Because all part are not equal.



To give a comparable example to how stupid the comparison is. Im from Southall West London. It has a comparable population to Airdrie. Do you have any idea how many more doctors, pharmacies, Hospital, medical centres locals have access to in that small area Vs Airdrie?
Are you guys really going to argue that Airdrie can vaccinate at the same rate as a town in West London?

On a secondary note, my dad has had the vaccine there. Nobody is tripping over themselves.

So to compare and argue Canada is comparable is ridiculous.

Today I learned Beyond thinks Airdrie is comparable to a town in West London.

[killramos]

I think, if 80 Million Vaccine doses were to show up at Pearson tomorrow, with even a fraction of our countries logistical capability be it military aircraft, local cargo and passenger aircraft sitting on tarmac collecting dust, fleets of ground delivery vehicles, thousands of local medical centres staffed by again even a fraction of our half a million nurses, 100 thousand doctors, hundreds of thousands of trained emergency responders administering dozens of doses a day we could have those doses in the arms of enough Canadians to make the pandemic irrelevant before a single one of those doses expires.

Meanwhile in London, last time I was there it took me 2 hours to get from Heathrow to downtown. I don’t think density is anywhere near the friend you think it is.

[bjstare]

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Today I assumed Beyond thinks Airdrie is comparable to a town in West London.

FTFY. You are literally the only person saying this.

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I think, if 80 Million Vaccine doses were to show up at Pearson tomorrow, with even a fraction of our countries logistical capability be it military aircraft, local cargo and passenger aircraft sitting on tarmac collecting dust, fleets of ground delivery vehicles, thousands of local medical centres staffed by again even a fraction of our half a million nurses, 100 thousand doctors, hundreds of thousands of trained emergency responders administering dozens of doses a day we could have those doses in the arms of enough Canadians to make the pandemic irrelevant before a single one of those doses expires.

Meanwhile in London, last time I was there it took me 2 hours to get from Heathrow to downtown. I don’t think density is anywhere near the friend you think it is.

This is more or less what I was talking about. That level of population density is not a good thing for administration of vaccines. Sure you can get a buttload of vaccines to a dr office, so the upstream logistics are easy, but you have to have 75000 people funnel through that one little location to get stuck with one.

[ExtraSlow]

Raj, I agree there's huge differences. Let's say Canada has half the capacity to "jab" per day. Are we getting 300k jabs done? No, and the problem isn't one of logistics or distance or Airdrie being different than Whitehall. It's government bungled supply that is holding us back. That's it.

[blownz]

None of this matters if we don't have any vaccines lol

I have a friend who is a director at AHS and it is fun getting him riled up about this. Just say something like "so why do you guys only administer like 100 shots a day?" and watch him go lol

[tonytiger55]

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You are literally the only person saying this.

Extrema posted this:

82% of Canadian lives in cities with the same medical infrastructure as London or Liverpool.

My argument is the same. Compare apples to apples. That is all.
By the logic presented, it seems to imply Canada is the same as the UK. Im arguing its not. But if we are going use that as the gospel all I have done is given a comparative example in this case it would be Airdrie.

Meanwhile in London, last time I was there it took me 2 hours to get from Heathrow to downtown. I don’t think density is anywhere near the friend you think it is.

Should have taken the Heathrow Express my friend.
Density actually does have a factor. Thats why there is more Doctors, Pharmacists in a particular area etc.
Im not arguing its a friend or foe. Its a factor. One of many.

IF you are argueing everything is the same or comparable. Lets break it down. Lets round the numbers. UK with a population of 60 million and Canada with 30 million
If you put 30 million doses in Leicester UK and 15 Million doses in Winnipeg (or Quebec). Then hit go. Which country would be able to vaccinate half their country first? I would argue the UK. Well... dare I say it.. Population density might play a factor.

Raj, I agree there's huge differences. Let's say Canada has half the capacity to "jab" per day. Are we getting 300k jabs done? No, and the problem isn't one of logistics or distance or Airdrie being different than Whitehall. It's government bungled supply that is holding us back. That's it.

I am not arguing logistics is a problem. I am arguing there are differences. I do not think the UK has the same Logisitcs as Canada? It just does not.

As others have pointed out. Supply and industry is factor. Then there is logistics. Perhaps the problem is the wrong word here. We do not have a logistical problem. All factors combined do not make it like the UK. So when a comparison is given that UK did 600,000. My argument is one cant compare the two countries. All parts are not equal.

[killramos]

By that logic you should never compare anything, since “all parts are not equal”.

That doesn’t sound like a particularly useful stance to take to me.

You say you are just considering it as a factor, “no friend or foe”, but you are looking at only the positives that density provides while completely glossing over the challenges.

I think what most people are arguing here, is that you drop the requisite number of per capita doses in Leicester or Montreal as you describe and hit the big go button, the net effect of vaccinating substantially all of the population of Canada and the UK likely happens at very comparable effective rates and outcomes.

Though it is all an irrelevant thought exercise considering neither country has all the vaccine doses they need sitting in Leicester or Montreal anyway.

[Xtrema]

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Though it is all an irrelevant thought exercise considering neither country has all the vaccine doses they need sitting in Leicester or Montreal anyway.

Basically this. The only success story for UK is they are hoarding all 2M/week doses from AZ (Although EU want some of it). And guess what, 10M people got vaccinated since they approved all 3 vaccines 4 weeks ago. Math checks out.

Like I said earlier, AB vaccinated 600k in 10 days. Everyone can be vaccinated for 1st dose in 2-3 months at that rate with easy to handle vaccine like AZ.


The problem is even if we approve AZ today, we probably won't see any for 2021 since the Belgium plant fucked up hard and lost 50M doses capacity in the coming months. Hence EU started the vaccine war and export control.

https://www.biospace.com/article/eur...vaccine-plant/

[schurchill39]

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The problem is even if we approve AZ today, we probably won't see any for 2021 since the Belgium plant fucked up hard and lost 50M doses capacity in the coming months. Hence EU started the vaccine war and export control.

https://www.biospace.com/article/eur...vaccine-plant/

Can someone ELI5 this whole AZ issue and the EU telling the rest of the world to fuck off?

[tonytiger55]

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By that logic you should never compare anything, since “all parts are not equal”.

That doesn’t sound like a particularly useful stance to take to me.

You say you are just considering it as a factor, “no friend or foe”, but you are looking at only the positives that density provides while completely glossing over the challenges.

I think what most people are arguing here, is that you drop the requisite number of per capita doses in Leicester or Montreal as you describe and hit the big go button, the net effect of vaccinating substantially all of the population of Canada and the UK likely happens at very comparable effective rates and outcomes.

Though it is all an irrelevant thought exercise considering neither country has all the vaccine doses they need sitting in Leicester or Montreal anyway.

Actually I think it is very relevant. The same type of nonsensical comparison came up on my FB feed a few times. Its a great example of how data can be misinterpreted without context.

The original argument posted was about the UK. A country not a city. But since comparisons on population density came up and how it is not relevant. I posted a example (Airdrie vs Southall) to highlight the flaws in that logic.
My dad walked to his vaccination centre. How many people will do that in Calgary? (or Airdrie for that matter). Thats why I pointed out its not a fair comparison.
If we are looking at raw numbers, sure. But numbers have no meaning without context.

Im not arguing Canada cant do it. Im arguing if Canada vaccinated 600,000 people in one day, they may have had to deal with much more challenges (or completely different ones) vs the Motherland across the Atlantic. Its not a fair comparison on the effectiveness and outcomes even though the result may be comparable.

I will give a car reference. I could race a modern CRV off the line. I just might have to keep my beast in 2nd gear and hold the poor bugger it to the redline.
The end result may be comparable. But the effectiveness and outcome wont be as my engine would have blown up.

But yes. We don't have the vaccine. That is something we can agree on.

[Xtrema]

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Can someone ELI5 this whole AZ issue and the EU telling the rest of the world to fuck off?

AZ underdeliver by like 60% while uk plant doesn't have issue. EU accuses AZ selling to others 1st for higher profits and not a technical glitch.

Hence export ban.

Meanwhile UK, after brexit is doing their own thing and vaccinating at break neck pace. Make EU beauacrats looks like fucking idiots who delayed the approval when they took Christmas off. And members east of Germany are begging to approve and use Chinese and Russian vaccines.

[killramos]

Not going to even bother with a quote, but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

[tonytiger55]

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Can someone ELI5 this whole AZ issue and the EU telling the rest of the world to fuck off?

Pretty much what Xtema posted. But just to add.

EU tried to block exports. But the ban causes a problem as its in violation of the Norther Ireland Agreement of free movement.

[Xtrema]

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Not going to even bother with a quote, but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

EU got no vaccine. UK after brexit got all the vaccine make EU looks bad. Hungary say fuck EU and is buying vaccine from China. Expect all former eastern block countries to follow suit and China will gladly deliver to further bring EU down a few more pegs.

EU export ban is just desperate attempt in saving face and trying to save the union via an export ban.

[killramos]

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EU got no vaccine. UK after brexit got all the vaccine make EU looks bad. Hungary say fuck EU and is buying vaccine from China. Expect all former eastern block countries to follow suit and China will gladly deliver to further bring EU down a few more pegs.

EU export ban is just desperate attempt in saving face and trying to save the union via an export ban.

Didn’t mean you. I guess this is the problem with not bothering to quote.