Who is getting the COVID-19 Vaccine?

[born2workoncars]

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my guess is the unvaccinated skew significantly to the lower income (along with intelligence frankly). So this will hit them more than we might think.

Source: Carnegie Mellon University

[Xtrema]

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Explain?

For one, resources. Many in medical fields are retiring early and less people are entering it due to how all these COVID deniers are treating health care pros. Our birth and productivity is already too low to afford people not entering the field and we are not importing enough to make up the difference.

Scarce resources = higher prices. Some US hospitals can no longer afford non-medical staff since Walmart pays more and has less risk. Basically cost of care will continue to go higher.


Seriously, read up on Singapore's health care system. It really give a balance of personal responsibility and universal coverage. I won't be sad if Canada go that route. Basically it's a single payer with private providers (both insurance and practitioners) and works in the spirit of CPP/RRSP. Government subsidy is there but won't pay for it all. That way the users actually has skin in the game.

[ExtraSlow]

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COVID will seriously change our health care system going forward.

Before Covid, one thing that NDP and Conservatives can agree on is that our health care system wasn't working great, and needed some structural changes. If Covid gets that conversation moved forward in an honest fashion, I think that's a new benefit for Canada.

[jutes]

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With any luck it will be the death knell for universal healthcare. But I don’t believe that anything will change for a second.

And kill those Public Service jobs monitoring the system? Unpossible.

[Xtrema]

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Before Covid, one thing that NDP and Conservatives can agree on is that our health care system wasn't working great, and needed some structural changes. If Covid gets that conversation moved forward in an honest fashion, I think that's a new benefit for Canada.

Unfortunately, both are addressing it as voter headcounts.

[kertejud2]

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Seriously, read up on Singapore's health care system. It really give a balance of personal responsibility and universal coverage. I won't be sad if Canada go that route. Basically it's a single payer with private providers (both insurance and practitioners) and works in the spirit of CPP/RRSP. Government subsidy is there but won't pay for it all. That way the users actually has skin in the game.

There are plenty of great universal systems with a public and private setup to look at models for. Singapore being a high density city-state isn't particularly replicable anywhere that isn't a city-state, but there are more Singapore-like systems than there are Canadian systems so catering something better has lots of options. France, Germany, Switzerland, Scandanavia all have better outcomes with elements of public and private integration. All have co-pay aspects and/or other forms of means tested payment schemes. Canada will never get as cheap as them due to geography: both in our size and sprawl that makes service inefficient to lots of communities, but also our location to the most expensive healthcare system in the world that will always drive the wages up of medical professionals for retention. But still more cost effective with better outcomes than the current system, which is a win-win.

The problem is that the people who push changes the most aggressively are just looking to the south to cherry pick certain aspects and think it's a solution, which causes the justified push back. At the individual level it's the emotionally uninformed, and at the political level it's people speaking on behalf of lobbyists of companies that want to cash in. It significantly holds back any chance for improvement in the system because any other voices pushing for change need to take an opposition stance to the others and get drowned out.

[JRSC00LUDE]

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For one, resources. Many in medical fields are retiring early and less people are entering it due to how all these COVID deniers are treating health care pros. Our birth and productivity is already too low to afford people not entering the field and we are not importing enough to make up the difference.

Is this opinion or verifiable (the less people entering it)? And honestly I don't think the treatment of health care pros is really an issue other than a few isolated incidents (Anecdotal Source - date ICU nurse, best friend's wife is ICU nurse, 4 friends are Doctors) .

Also I can't possibly imagine covid being a long term drain on resources, I think that's a bit of fear-mongering to be honest. Other than that I follow support a top down teardown of the entire system, hope I live to see it - no matter how much the morons (like that codetrap guy who defended AHS and Unions to the point he had to leave here) of the world think it's so awesome as it is.

[ExtraSlow]

The attractiveness of the medical profession is something we should have open and honest discussions about. It's a demanding field that should have good pay and good working conditions. I hear conflicting reports about how easy it is to recruit for those positions.

And I don't recall that specific conversation, but that Codetrap guy was pretty reasonable about most things. I met him one (Claim to fame thread material maybe?)

[Cagare]

With respect to the medical profession we should have an open and honest conversation about how many we are actually educating in this Country. I have known several extremely intelligent and hard working people that have struggled to find a spot at medical school in Canada. I know a few currently that have been accepted to schools in the Caribbean that will allow for future residency and certification in Canada. Seems we have a problem educating doctors. There needs to be a combination of this and external recruitment.

Educating nurses doesn't appear to be the same struggle in Canada, at least not everywhere. Nursing has largely appeared to be a management problem in this Country. Likely because of the supply compared to doctors they are often mistreated to some degree because we believe they are easier to replace, maybe less mobile. I know where I am from if they mistreat nurses they will just go work in the US because it only adds another 20-30 minutes to their commute.

[Buster]

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There are plenty of great universal systems with a public and private setup to look at models for. Singapore being a high density city-state isn't particularly replicable anywhere that isn't a city-state, but there are more Singapore-like systems than there are Canadian systems so catering something better has lots of options. France, Germany, Switzerland, Scandanavia all have better outcomes with elements of public and private integration. All have co-pay aspects and/or other forms of means tested payment schemes. Canada will never get as cheap as them due to geography: both in our size and sprawl that makes service inefficient to lots of communities, but also our location to the most expensive healthcare system in the world that will always drive the wages up of medical professionals for retention. But still more cost effective with better outcomes than the current system, which is a win-win.

The problem is that the people who push changes the most aggressively are just looking to the south to cherry pick certain aspects and think it's a solution, which causes the justified push back. At the individual level it's the emotionally uninformed, and at the political level it's people speaking on behalf of lobbyists of companies that want to cash in. It significantly holds back any chance for improvement in the system because any other voices pushing for change need to take an opposition stance to the others and get drowned out.

I don't see how this fixes the problems that are a fundamental part of public healthcare: humans respond to incentives, and things they perceive as "free" get abused by the people who are least likely to contribute. The lack of effective market forces also allows the public labour unions and various administrative hangers-on to crush the taxpayer at every opportunity.

I disagree with the notion that a private healthcare system needs to look like the US.

[redline]

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I don't see how this fixes the problems that are a fundamental part of public healthcare: humans respond to incentives, and things they perceive as "free" get abused by the people who are least likely to contribute. The lack of effective market forces also allows the public labour unions and various administrative hangers-on to crush the taxpayer at every opportunity.

I disagree with the notion that a private healthcare system needs to look like the US.

The us system is shit, unless your rich …

- - - Updated - - -

Here is something for the people that don’t want a jab…

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucele...h=364c86543735

[Xtrema]

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Is this opinion or verifiable (the less people entering it)? And honestly I don't think the treatment of health care pros is really an issue other than a few isolated incidents (Anecdotal Source - date ICU nurse, best friend's wife is ICU nurse, 4 friends are Doctors) .

Also I can't possibly imagine covid being a long term drain on resources, I think that's a bit of fear-mongering to be honest. Other than that I follow support a top down teardown of the entire system, hope I live to see it - no matter how much the morons (like that codetrap guy who defended AHS and Unions to the point he had to leave here) of the world think it's so awesome as it is.

I think it's too early for any quantifiable numbers. But the stories of professional hanging it up early is pretty common even before Omicron rear its ugly head.

The Nursing profession, it's not in good shape before this current quitting wave.

One of her close friends, a colleague, was assaulted at work.

While this alone wasn’t enough to force her hand — Bernhard says assaults and violent patients had been growing more common over the past two years — the lack of protection and mental health support offered to staff working in such environments meant this was the “straw that broke the camels back.”

Bernhard says nurses are routinely having to deal with aggressive patients, being assaulted, and being placed on wards where they have no training or experience, with little support.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8487144/c...hortage-alarm/

The nurse-per-capita ratio has been in steady decline in Ontario since 2014 as population growth outpaced the number of employed nurses. In 2020, Ontario had the lowest nurse-per-capita ratio in Canada, with 665 registered nurses (RNs) for every 100,000 people. The Canadian average is 814; Ontario would require 22,003 more working RNs just to reach the national average.

Ontario government investments this year are expected to add up to 2,000 new nursing school positions and allow hospitals to employ more than 4,000 health “externs,” nursing students supervised by nurses who work as unregulated care providers as part of health-care teams. While recruitment strategies are viewed as positive by many in the nursing profession, they say the strategies miss the mark.

https://healthydebate.ca/2021/10/top...sing-shortage/

This was fact with aging population and increase needs before COVID exacerbate the bleed out.

And nurses that are certified for US work and willing to travel is making bank right now down south.

Troy Bruntz runs Community Hospital, a 25-bed critical access facility in McCook, Nebraska. He’s been trying to recruit a third ultrasound technician for at least six months without getting a single application.

For lower-level positions, the hospital competes with the local Walmart store, where wages are rising. He monitors the pay offered by the retailer as well as the other large local employers, a hose manufacturer and an irrigation equipment supplier.

“What used to be an $8 job now is $15,” said Bruntz, a 52-year-old who once worked as an accountant for KPMG. “That’s the only way we get people to come to work.”

And it's not only pros, support staff too. Inflations and somehow lack of people wanting to work is making this tougher.

https://www.arcamax.com/currentnews/...s/s-2617292-p2


Like if you have a choice to work an AHS cafeteria for $18/hr and Amazon pays $21+ to deliver stuff with just yourself and your truck all day long, which would you pick?

[Misterman]

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my guess is the unvaccinated skew significantly to the lower income (along with intelligence frankly). So this will hit them more than we might think.

Yeah using the coercion tactic of not letting people go out to eat or travel, when they can't afford to do so anyway, probably isn't convincing many of them to jam something of zero value in their arms. But with the biggest demographic of unvaxxed being minorities/indians, it's not a far off guess that they are also poor and of low intelligence. Although that is more of a convenient coincidence than a metric deduced based on their choice to not get the shot.

[Xtrema]

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Yeah using the coercion tactic of not letting people go out to eat or travel, when they can't afford to do so anyway, probably isn't convincing many of them to jam something of zero value in their arms. But with the biggest demographic of unvaxxed being minorities/indians, it's not a far off guess that they are also poor and of low intelligence. Although that is more of a convenient coincidence than a metric deduced based on their choice to not get the shot.

All the coercion is created by an universal health care where users has no skin in the game.

Create a system of choice and consequence by private sector and everyone will STFU,

[BerserkerCatSplat]

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Source: Carnegie Mellon University

The data came from a Facebook poll that was brigaded.

“To be included in the analysis sample, participants had to complete the questions on vaccine uptake and intent, and report a gender other than “prefer to self-describe.”. This exclusion was made after discovering that the majority of fill-in responses for self-described gender were political/discriminatory statements or otherwise questionable answers (e.g. Apache Helicopter or Unicorn), and that as a group, those who selected self-described gender (<1% of the sample) had a high frequency of uncommon responses (e.g., Hispanic ethnicity [41.4%], the oldest age group [23.2% ≥75 years] and highest education level [28.1% Doctorate]), suggesting the survey was not completed in good faith.”

[bjstare]

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The us system is shit, unless your rich …

Yeah that, or you just have to have a half decent job with a half decent employer that has benefits.

[Xtrema]

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Yeah that, or you just have to have a half decent job with a half decent employer that has benefits.

Or like my cousin in Virginia, afraid to have kids until you take on a job you don't like but have excellent health plan.

There are other model to follow, I don't think US is good one.

For example, RRSP/RRIF is basically something allow some people to get off the OAS train. I'm sure there is something similar we can do with a medical saving account with tax benefit and inheritable to next gen that can tackle the cost of an universal medical system while let users have skin in the game.

[Misterman]

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Yeah that, or you just have to have a half decent job with a half decent employer that has benefits.

Funny how this "US healthcare shit" argument is so heavily propagated, when I don't even have one anecdote to confirm it. Every person I know in the US has no issues with their healthcare at all.

[Xtrema]

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Funny how this "US healthcare shit" argument is so heavily propagated, when I don't even have one anecdote to confirm it. Every person I know in the US has no issues with their healthcare at all.

Just don't lose your good job or have cash. That's their system. But their delivery is definitely way more timely than ours.

[Misterman]

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Or like my cousin in Virginia, afraid to have kids until you take on a job you don't like but have excellent health plan.

I would love a system that deters people from becoming or creating more government leeches. Sounds like a positive.

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There are other model to follow, I don't think US is good one.

For example, RRSP/RRIF is basically something allow some people to get off the OAS train. I'm sure there is something similar we can do with a medical saving account with tax benefit and inheritable to next gen that can tackle the cost of an universal medical system while let users have skin in the game.

RRSP is a huge honey dicking by the government. Why tax that money today, when they can tax it in the future after it has compounded and there is a lot more to tax, and the tax rates will be higher as well.

But yes, there is absolutely better models a country could follow for private health care than the US one. That's why it's silly that every time someone mentions private care, some white knight runs in and goes "USA bad mmmkay"

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Just don't lose your good job or have cash. That's their system. But their delivery is definitely way more timely than ours.

Basic laws of the universe. You can't create something from nothing. You have a certain level of value in the healthcare system, you can use that value to create great quality for the majority, or you can decrease the quality to offer it to all.


Interestingly enough, my job does not pay my car insurance, but I find a way to come up with that insurance payment every month whether I'm working or not. And driving is far less important than living.