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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    It's funny what Masi said, but sadly unprofessional. It's the same part of me that thinks it'd be funny if, next season, Toto tells Russell to bin it into a RBR/AT car and, when Masi calls him out on it, Toto replies, "This is motorsport, Michael."

    You seem to have a pretty entitled view as a "real" F1 fan.
    The big difference is unlike bort and checo that are there to play a clear number two … Russell is there to win and take over the team. ham is going to have his hands full with Russell.

    The other issue is not knowing how each team will adopt to the new rules, Benz or red bull could blow it … I think that unlikely but either one could do a red team.

    Can’t wait for testing…

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    Quote Originally Posted by redline View Post
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    The big difference is unlike bort and checo that are there to play a clear number two … Russell is there to win and take over the team. ham is going to have his hands full with Russell.

    The other issue is not knowing how each team will adopt to the new rules, Benz or red bull could blow it … I think that unlikely but either one could do a red team.

    Can’t wait for testing…
    ??? I don't think I mentioned anything about team dynamic. I'm making the example of sending Russell into an RBR/AT team as a facetious way to stick Masi's "This is motor racing" retort up his ass. As a distant spectator, it's funny. But officiants shouldn't be talking to players/coaches/spectators that way. It only escalates the interaction and nothing good comes out of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    ??? I don't think I mentioned anything about team dynamic. I'm making the example of sending Russell into an RBR/AT team as a facetious way to stick Masi's "This is motor racing" retort up his ass. As a distant spectator, it's funny. But officiants shouldn't be talking to players/coaches/spectators that way. It only escalates the interaction and nothing good comes out of it.
    Toto wasn't exactly being professional in his exchange with Masi either, the parts we got to hear on TV made him sound like a child throwing a tantrum.

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    I always liked Bottas, wish he could have been more instrumental for Lewis as Checo has been on more than one occasion for Max. But I will miss Bottas and will be rooting for Alfa Romeo as well next season - though also for additional reason than just the Bottas one. I am looking forward to seeing how Lewis and George do and the cars with all the new changes in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 94boosted View Post
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    Toto wasn't exactly being professional in his exchange with Masi either, the parts we got to hear on TV made him sound like a child throwing a tantrum.
    No, but that's been part of the problem this year with them introducing these comms between team and race director (which I think is new this year?). The lobbying from both sides has been kind of the problem. At some point, Masi should've told both of them to fuck off earlier this season.

    But also, I think it's difficult to blame Toto for being like 'WTF' to Masi here though. It was a dramatic reversal from his previous decision and flies in the face of the rule that states that after relapping, the SC stays out for one more lap before racing resumes. Did a cross a line? Probably. But Masi coming back with "It's motor racing" doesn't do anything to de-escalate it either. Ignoring or telling him we'll talk after the race in a sport where post-race investigations aren't uncommon, is far more effective.
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    Toto can blow it out his ass.

    He's a man-child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    No, but that's been part of the problem this year with them introducing these comms between team and race director (which I think is new this year?). The lobbying from both sides has been kind of the problem. At some point, Masi should've told both of them to fuck off earlier this season.

    But also, I think it's difficult to blame Toto for being like 'WTF' to Masi here though. It was a dramatic reversal from his previous decision and flies in the face of the rule that states that after relapping, the SC stays out for one more lap before racing resumes. Did a cross a line? Probably. But Masi coming back with "It's motor racing" doesn't do anything to de-escalate it either. Ignoring or telling him we'll talk after the race in a sport where post-race investigations aren't uncommon, is far more effective.
    Its a huge contrast to how Horner pled his case about the lap 1 call.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    ??? I don't think I mentioned anything about team dynamic. I'm making the example of sending Russell into an RBR/AT team as a facetious way to stick Masi's "This is motor racing" retort up his ass. As a distant spectator, it's funny. But officiants shouldn't be talking to players/coaches/spectators that way. It only escalates the interaction and nothing good comes out of it.
    Expect russel will not do it cause he is there to win and not be a ham errand boy … so now your just talkin out your ass just like every other fan boi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    Lewis benefited from this as much, and quite likely more, than anyone in the history of the sport.
    Pretty sure Schumacher has him beat by a long shot. Your recency bias for Lewis is making you forget about all the rules they put into place because of Schumacher antics.

    You also can't accept that Lewis isn't just lucky and perhaps that because he drives within the 'rules', he comes out on top a lot because he's not crossing the line. Silverstone was a racing incident until Max hit the wall - applying penalties because of the severity of the incident was/is bullshit. It's like I said before, Masi and co are artificially influencing the results for PR, views, clicks, etc. and as a fan of F1, I'd rather it be cut and dry regardless if it's against who I cheer for. Random application of the rules from race to race is frustrating to watch and completely ruins it for a large majority of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by birdman86 View Post
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    Its a huge contrast to how Horner pled his case about the lap 1 call.
    I think these radio calls have been going on since the beginning of time, and we are just getting a sneak peek behind the curtain. I bet if we got to hear all radio messages, the whining would be insufferable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npham View Post
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    Pretty sure Schumacher has him beat by a long shot. Your recency bias for Lewis is making you forget about all the rules they put into place because of Schumacher antics.

    You also can't accept that Lewis isn't just lucky and perhaps that because he drives within the 'rules', he comes out on top a lot because he's not crossing the line. Silverstone was a racing incident until Max hit the wall - applying penalties because of the severity of the incident was/is bullshit. It's like I said before, Masi and co are artificially influencing the results for PR, views, clicks, etc. and as a fan of F1, I'd rather it be cut and dry regardless if it's against who I cheer for. Random application of the rules from race to race is frustrating to watch and completely ruins it for a large majority of us.


    I think these radio calls have been going on since the beginning of time, and we are just getting a sneak peek behind the curtain. I bet if we got to hear all radio messages, the whining would be insufferable.
    Schumacher was dirty. I don't think Lewis always benefits from being dirty. I think he had benefited from a lot of decisions going his way over the years. The start of this race being a prime example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    So, let's be clear about the unlapping rule and how it applies here. Let me know if I have the rule wrong:

    - The rules stipulate that if cars are unlapping, they have to unlap and then go one more lap under the SC before racing can resume. Is that correct?
    - As lap 57 was ending under the safety car, the 4 or 5 backmarkers betweeen HAM and VER were told to unlap.
    - Lap 58 would be the unlapping lap
    - Lap 59 (hypothetically) is that lap after where the SC would come in
    - Lap 60 would be the next possible racing lap

    Is that right?
    I don't think I've seen too many people refuting this (though maybe the end of 58 would've been the lap the SC comes in and then 59 being the next racing lap).

    But anyways, I think we're getting off-track in terms of which team/driver/principal is acting more entitled than the other. Ultimately, all that matters is what should have been the proper way for this race to end.

    So given the above parameters - assuming that Latifi's crash wasn't cleared until lap 56 and our knowledge of the existing rulebook - what is the most fair way for the race to end (and if I miss one, then we can re-consider)?
    A) Unlap all the cars on lap 57, leading to (according to the rules) lap 58 as the final SC and thus the race ends.
    B) Leave the backmarkers, pull in the SC on lap 57 and let them race it out on lap 58
    C) Red flag it and run the last 3-4 laps from a standing start a la Qatar (I've seen this floated as an option, I have no idea how viable it is).
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    The problem is that you think there should have been a "fair" way to end the race. Under the rules, the only way the race should have ended was under a SC or Option B. Make Max fight through the field with better tires and see if Hamilton (who had a 11-12 second lead) could hold on. This would have satisfied the excitement for TV and the race wouldn't end on a SC.

    The way it stood, it was a gift to Max because Sainz in 3rd or anyone else fighting for points/positions got screwed out of the opportunity to improve - only Max gained an advantage. Maybe Sainz goes bowling and crashes them both out and Max still wins. Fine by me, but this application only served to help Max/RB out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npham View Post
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    The problem is that you think there should have been a "fair" way to end the race. Under the rules, the only way the race should have ended was under a SC or Option B. Make Max fight through the field with better tires and see if Hamilton (who had a 11-12 second lead) could hold on. This would have satisfied the excitement for TV and the race wouldn't end on a SC.

    The way it stood, it was a gift to Max because Sainz in 3rd or anyone else fighting for points/positions got screwed out of the opportunity to improve - only Max gained an advantage. Maybe Sainz goes bowling and crashes them both out and Max still wins. Fine by me, but this application only served to help Max/RB out.
    It was a zero sum game. There was always going to be a beneficiary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by npham View Post
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    The problem is that you think there should have been a "fair" way to end the race. Under the rules, the only way the race should have ended was under a SC or Option B. Make Max fight through the field with better tires and see if Hamilton (who had a 11-12 second lead) could hold on. This would have satisfied the excitement for TV and the race wouldn't end on a SC.

    The way it stood, it was a gift to Max because Sainz in 3rd or anyone else fighting for points/positions got screwed out of the opportunity to improve - only Max gained an advantage. Maybe Sainz goes bowling and crashes them both out and Max still wins. Fine by me, but this application only served to help Max/RB out.
    Well, "fair" in the sense that these are the 3 options that we know about that are also in line with the rules as we know them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    It was a zero sum game. There was always going to be a beneficiary.
    That doesn't answer the question though. Ultimately, any decision/indecision is going to have an effect. Like I said, all 3 options are the ones that I'm aware of (I realized later that Karun had mentioned the red flag deal but Masi had already stated pre-race that any incident at T14 will be a safety car and not a red flag) that are in accordance with the rules as we know them. Which one would you have preferred?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    That doesn't answer the question though. Ultimately, any decision/indecision is going to have an effect. Like I said, all 3 options are the ones that I'm aware of (I realized later that Karun had mentioned the red flag deal but Masi had already stated pre-race that any incident at T14 will be a safety car and not a red flag) that are in accordance with the rules as we know them. Which one would you have preferred?
    I liked the one they used.

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    I don't really watch F1 but kinda got sucked in a bit this year due to the hype and because all of you, the Beyond F1 bros. I just watched the race replay and all I can say is that Max has got some serious guts; to make a move like that on the last lap and then to hang on with everything on the line, wow. I've enjoyed his brash approach to racing but I also feel that Lewis is a good ambassador for the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    No, but that's been part of the problem this year with them introducing these comms between team and race director (which I think is new this year?). The lobbying from both sides has been kind of the problem. At some point, Masi should've told both of them to fuck off earlier this season.

    But also, I think it's difficult to blame Toto for being like 'WTF' to Masi here though. It was a dramatic reversal from his previous decision and flies in the face of the rule that states that after relapping, the SC stays out for one more lap before racing resumes. Did a cross a line? Probably. But Masi coming back with "It's motor racing" doesn't do anything to de-escalate it either. Ignoring or telling him we'll talk after the race in a sport where post-race investigations aren't uncommon, is far more effective.

    the crying from team principles and race director has always been there. this is just the first year that it's being broadcasted. It's like any sports. The crying has always been there. Easy for a sideline causal viewer to give a "best politically correct response"

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    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    A) Unlap all the cars on lap 57, leading to (according to the rules) lap 58 as the final SC and thus the race ends.
    B) Leave the backmarkers, pull in the SC on lap 57 and let them race it out on lap 58
    C) Red flag it and run the last 3-4 laps from a standing start a la Qatar (I've seen this floated as an option, I have no idea how viable it is).
    D) let the 5 cars in between the lead cars pass and then let them race to the end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
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    It was a zero sum game. There was always going to be a beneficiary.

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    Wow, so much to catch-up on. I actually think I'll re-watch the race later today if I have time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ganesh View Post
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    As for people questioning whether the race should have finished behind SC , well Massi did that this year in Belgium (Another fuck up ).
    Not running a full proper race due to rain and unsafe driving conditions is nothing like this situation. Whether they should have awarded any points at all is a separate discussion/argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by flipstah View Post
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    Can’t we all be happy for Sainz P3
    Thrilled for Sainz. Quite surprised he ended 5th in the final Driver Standings (1st behind Merc/RBR drivers) but if Ferrari brings a competitive car into 2022 it would be great to see him regularly compete for the podium (same for Leclerc).

    Quote Originally Posted by sexualbanana View Post
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    No, but that's been part of the problem this year with them introducing these comms between team and race director (which I think is new this year?). The lobbying from both sides has been kind of the problem. At some point, Masi should've told both of them to fuck off earlier this season.
    I'm curious if the comms are more "made for tv" now or if they speak in the same way as they always have? It definitely seems like F1 is erring on the side of "entertainment" over "racing" lately.

    A few of my own thoughts:
    1. I really hope they put strict track limits in place for 2022 and apply them consistently.
    2. They need to clarify the rules around "lunging" or "dive-bombing" on the inside and apply it consistently. We've seen so many variations of what happened on the first lap between Lewis and Max this season and there's no consistent policy on when a move should hold or when a position should be given back or if it's warranted for a driver pushed off the track (a la Lewis) to regain the position outside track limits.
    3. The conspiracy theorist in me says Mazespin didn't actually have COVID and they just didn't want him to f-up and decide the WDC (so that Latifi could instead )

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidI View Post
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    Not running a full proper race due to rain and unsafe driving conditions is nothing like this situation. Whether they should have awarded any points at all is a separate discussion/argument.
    My point is that race should have never even started. It was pretty damn obvious the conditions were horrible. Masi has clearly shown that he is not capable of being a race director over and over. I am waiting for his next offer.

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