Buying Land, Building Multiple Houses + Shop, questions!

[JRSC00LUDE]

Oh if it's on screw piles it all makes sense then, neat project!

[ThePenIsMightier]

That concrete guy on the right just turned 24. True story.

[JRSC00LUDE]

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That concrete guy on the right just turned 24. True story.

Don't make fun of Iggy Pop, times are tough.

[prae]

@eblend wanted to take my question to the right thread:

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I kind of expect this to be the case already, so expecting it, not going to be cheap. I plan on building a pole barn home like this where they basically put up the entire building to lockup stage on screw piles...and you do all the interior yourself, which includes doing all plumbing after the fact and then flooding it all with concrete, so the entry point into the whole building would be a side garage door...so either lots of barrels and ramps to get it to far corners, or a pump truck.

Sorry for the derail!

Why not pour the house pad first and build the post-frame building atop it? Pouring after you've built all the walls seems really counter-intuitive.


edit:

which includes doing all plumbing after the fact

ah. maybe that explains it. I still don't see why you wouldn't prep abs drainage etc ahead of time if you know the general layout of the house. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[eblend]

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@eblend wanted to take my question to the right thread:



Why not pour the house pad first and build the post-frame building atop it? Pouring after you've built all the walls seems really counter-intuitive.


edit:

ah. maybe that explains it. I still don't see why you wouldn't prep abs drainage etc ahead of time if you know the general layout of the house. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's the way these types of building are built, don't know. the pad just floats in the middle, it's not part of the "foundation" so to say. It's basically a barn, and many barns don't have floors at all, so the pad is always poured after the fact. Think if the pad was already there, they wouldn't be able to screw in the screw piles, as the screw part of it would actually be under the slab. Don't know all the details, but I actually prefer this, can work under a roof while doing everything else.

[bjstare]

What do you do for flooring and mill work (baseboards) then? Surely unless you put massive piles under the pad, the floor is going to shift and heave separately from your walls. Actually having said that, wouldn’t it mean your kitchen counters would move around relative to the walls as well?

I must be missing something.

[ThePenIsMightier]

I haven't heard of this either, but I'm guessing there will still be screw piles with large pile cap footings beneath the slab.

[ExtraSlow]

I only know about this building method for barns etc. No idea if that causes problems in a house. But expect OP has done more research then any of us.

[ThePenIsMightier]

I think a similar method allows giant vessel shops like Cessco to hydrotest a few million pounds indoors without risking structural damage.

[mrsingh]

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Don't know most of that, it's a fully Engineered building, they take care of everything related to the actual shell of the structure, it's built to lockup, so basically doors/windows already installed, it's a full building in building wrap, with no interior and no siding (but full metal roof). Everything that's structural is engineered and built by them, all interior walls are non-load bearing, so you can technically put them anywhere you want, but they provide engineering and design for interior layout as well, which we love. I am asking for a modification to have an extra garage, and I think I might throw a lift in there, in that case I will have to make some footings in the area of the lift to support the weight.

Besides time, what are the advantages of this versus typical residential construction for an acreage. You still need to do the septic and services as you mentioned, as well as the entire interior. Is there a significant cost savings? Or is it just quick to get an enclosed structure, and then you can fit it out with you putting in much of the labour as you mentioned. I am asking because my parents are aging as well, being East Indian they would traditionally come live with me at this point (we haven't lived together since I was 22 and they still live in Greater Vancouver), this idea of yours is appealing to me as well.

[eblend]

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Besides time, what are the advantages of this versus typical residential construction for an acreage. You still need to do the septic and services as you mentioned, as well as the entire interior. Is there a significant cost savings? Or is it just quick to get an enclosed structure, and then you can fit it out with you putting in much of the labour as you mentioned. I am asking because my parents are aging as well, being East Indian they would traditionally come live with me at this point (we haven't lived together since I was 22 and they still live in Greater Vancouver), this idea of yours is appealing to me as well.

Advantage is like you stated, you work inside of a closed space, the structure is up in 1 month, and after that you basically work on it as you see fit. Cost savings, I don't know, aside from the fact that I don't know too many companies that will build you a standard house structure, and then let you do the rest. With a standard house you got load bearing walls etc, whereas here, only your outside walls are load bearing, so it gives you lots of choice of how you lay out the interior. It's definitely not for everyone, but it's what I chose to do because it's a good mix of contractors doing work and me doing work, at the end of the day it should be cheaper then a custom home in the same size I would think. Co-worker had one build out in the country, and it's not cheap, and he had his build by a builder, so I am hoping to save a ton on labour basically, plus I enjoy this type of stuff so something for me to do instead of sitting on the couch watching TV.

Regarding the few posts above about the floating concrete, the pad lays between the walls of the house, so that is what prevents the pad from moving anywhere. It will settle, but won't be much different then normal homes settling, except in this case the only thing that's sitting on the pad is the interior walls and the interior, the actual weight of the house is sitting on screw piles.

Found this picture on the internet that shows the various layers of how this is build, maybe it will make more sense. The 2x8 in this picture is like a base board that runs on the bottom to contain everything. This picture doesn't show the columns but there would be a column on the left side of this on a screw pile or a concrete post.


Found a good general picture for this type of construction, the concrete will basically be poured to the top of that 2x6 or 2x8 or whatever, that will be the top of the concrete, and obviously your foam insulation, rebar, hydronic pipes underneath

[ThePenIsMightier]

Ok, so here's your next concrete scam of the week...
They're going to slash holes in that 6mil poly so the water runs through more quickly and the concrete dries faster.
This does not meet code.
Watch for it and don't let them do it.

[eblend]

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Ok, so here's your next concrete scam of the week...
They're going to slash holes in that 6mil poly so the water runs through more quickly and the concrete dries faster.
This does not meet code.
Watch for it and don't let them do it.

The poly approach is the standard approach that many people take, I won't have poly or rigid foam, it's all going to be spray foam right on the dirt. It's an alternative approach to what's pictured and is better. I might change my mind once I see the price, but since I am spraying the whole building already my budget for it is VERY healthy, and rigid foam isn't cheap either. Spray foam is it's own vapor barrier (and is documented as such with Rocky View Country, which also approved to ground application)

[gcoap]

Spray foam the base after plumbing makes it so that the finishers cannot slash the poly. Or just be onsite for the pour to watch for that. It also doesn't hurt to check depths. The clean out rings should not need to be stomped into the base to get them to height.

[bjstare]

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Regarding the few posts above about the floating concrete, the pad lays between the walls of the house, so that is what prevents the pad from moving anywhere. It will settle, but won't be much different then normal homes settling, except in this case the only thing that's sitting on the pad is the interior walls and the interior, the actual weight of the house is sitting on screw piles.

Obviously the pad won't move anywhere substantial on the horizontal axis.. but unless it's on piles, it's floating. It's entirely different than normal homes settling, because in a traditional concrete foundation build the walls and floor are anchored on the same piece of concrete, whereas this approach is two completely independent pieces. An analogy is like building a little house on a waterbed. The exterior walls are on the frame, and the floors, cabinets, etc are on the water bladder. Walls will never move, everything else will. Granted, I'm not that type of engineer, I just can't fathom how this works in a residential application without piles under the pad. It's obvious this is a great approach for a barn/shop that doesn't have nice cabinets and flooring everywhere.

[eblend]

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Obviously the pad won't move anywhere substantial on the horizontal axis.. but unless it's on piles, it's floating. It's entirely different than normal homes settling, because in a traditional concrete foundation build the walls and floor are anchored on the same piece of concrete, whereas this approach is two completely independent pieces. An analogy is like building a little house on a waterbed. The exterior walls are on the frame, and the floors, cabinets, etc are on the water bladder. Walls will never move, everything else will. Granted, I'm not that type of engineer, I just can't fathom how this works in a residential application without piles under the pad. It's obvious this is a great approach for a barn/shop that doesn't have nice cabinets and flooring everywhere.

Yah understandable, but this whole trend isn't new and lots of homes have been built this way in different regions. I doubt engineers would put their stamp on house plans that would not really work once fully built. We will see how it goes.

[ThePenIsMightier]

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The poly approach is the standard approach that many people take, I won't have poly or rigid foam, it's all going to be spray foam right on the dirt. It's an alternative approach to what's pictured and is better. I might change my mind once I see the price, but since I am spraying the whole building already my budget for it is VERY healthy, and rigid foam isn't cheap either. Spray foam is it's own vapor barrier (and is documented as such with Rocky View Country, which also approved to ground application)

Another option to consider is using Cematrix as a base. I'm not sure if it would be cheaper but it would certainly be more uniform and level.
You can look up Cematrix. It's basically concrete minus the rocks and full of air bubbles like an Aero chocolate bar.

[mrsingh]

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Advantage is like you stated, you work inside of a closed space, the structure is up in 1 month, and after that you basically work on it as you see fit. Cost savings, I don't know, aside from the fact that I don't know too many companies that will build you a standard house structure, and then let you do the rest. With a standard house you got load bearing walls etc, whereas here, only your outside walls are load bearing, so it gives you lots of choice of how you lay out the interior. It's definitely not for everyone, but it's what I chose to do because it's a good mix of contractors doing work and me doing work, at the end of the day it should be cheaper then a custom home in the same size I would think. Co-worker had one build out in the country, and it's not cheap, and he had his build by a builder, so I am hoping to save a ton on labour basically, plus I enjoy this type of stuff so something for me to do instead of sitting on the couch watching TV.

Regarding the few posts above about the floating concrete, the pad lays between the walls of the house, so that is what prevents the pad from moving anywhere. It will settle, but won't be much different then normal homes settling, except in this case the only thing that's sitting on the pad is the interior walls and the interior, the actual weight of the house is sitting on screw piles.

Found this picture on the internet that shows the various layers of how this is build, maybe it will make more sense. The 2x8 in this picture is like a base board that runs on the bottom to contain everything. This picture doesn't show the columns but there would be a column on the left side of this on a screw pile or a concrete post.

Found a good general picture for this type of construction, the concrete will basically be poured to the top of that 2x6 or 2x8 or whatever, that will be the top of the concrete, and obviously your foam insulation, rebar, hydronic pipes underneath

This is a great reply, thank you. Excited to see how this turns out for you, please continue to document your progresses (and challenges) here.

[eblend]

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Another option to consider is using Cematrix as a base. I'm not sure if it would be cheaper but it would certainly be more uniform and level.
You can look up Cematrix. It's basically concrete minus the rocks and full of air bubbles like an Aero chocolate bar.

Interesting, looked briefly into it, wonder what kind of insulative properties it has, as that's critical for hydronic heating.

[ThePenIsMightier]

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Interesting, looked briefly into it, wonder what kind of insulative properties it has, as that's critical for hydronic heating.

It's a strong thermal barrier, but I don't know the R-value.