215 bodies in Kamloops mass childrens grave.

[msommers]

You're not reading my friend.

The end goal is not money. It's not locking someone up.

Like anyone personally, or even a large instituon like the church -- when you have a problem or fucked up the first step is actually admitting it and then figure out how to get passed it. Why do rape victims often not come forward? They think no one will believe them. Why can't FNs 'just move on'? Given the vast amount of denial, dismissing and carpet sweeping by various levels of the Canadian populous, church and state, it should be obvious.

[finboy]

Trial would require exhuming all graves, performing a study of each (well decomposed) body to determine probable cause of death, determining who among an entire fleet of people at each school 50+ years ago might have caused any intentional death, tracking down if that person is alive (minimum of mid 70’s?), figuring out how to take the cases to trial, trying to find reliable witnesses that could help push the burden of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.

You starting to see why killramos is saying this is logistically not plausible? This isn’t Nuremberg where the charges are being up a year after the events occurred.

I also have a hard time believing that the church or government saying “we are sorry” would ever be the end of it. It also opens them up for liability so I don’t see that happening in any material way.

[killramos]

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You're not reading my friend.

The end goal is not money. It's not locking someone up.

Like anyone personally, or even a large instituon like the church -- when you have a problem or fucked up the first step is actually admitting it and then figure out how to get passed it. Why do rape victims often not come forward? They think no one will believe them. Why can't FNs 'just move on'? Given the vast amount of denial, dismissing and carpet sweeping by various levels of the Canadian populous, church and state, it should be obvious.

I see it as a difference of opinion, because to me saying “it’s not about money” is a stance that is either naive or intentionally misleading.

[SKR]

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So your plan is yell at some clouds, and throw countless resources at investigating a problem that is well known, to in all likelihood end up at the same place we are today.

Investigating 30+ year old cold cases is about as terrible of a societal ROI as it gets.

Well, keep wondering why the problem doesn't fix itself then.

"We wouldn't have to treat Indians like Indians if they'd just stop acting like Indians" seems more expensive in the long run, but what do I know.

[msommers]

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I see it as a difference of opinion, because to me saying “it’s not about money” is a stance that is either naive or intentionally misleading.

Why is that your opinion? Have you spoken to any FN about residential schools directly?

You're entitled to your opinion.

[Buster]

"All we want is an acknowledgement!!!"

This has been the top news story for months, and serious apologies have been part of our history for about 40 years.

Done and done.

[AndyL]

So we want trials now?

Who's left? to have been of age to be fresh out of school first year ready to teach in 1960 - you'd be at least 81 now (that's not even with a degree, but teachers didn't always have university back then I believe). To be in a position of authority you'd be in the 100yr old range.

The survivors of the 60s scoop - are mostly of the retirement age. 1960 really was 60 years ago.

Not being apologist, not condoning - but reality... Someone might be able to find some awful teachers from the 60s to prosecute. Shouldn't that have come out in the NTRC though?

[killramos]

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Why is that your opinion? Have you spoken to any FN about residential schools directly?

You're entitled to your opinion.

Because when it comes to asking the question, the people who are set to receive money aren’t particularly objective source.

I’m not sure there has ever been an interaction between Canadian and First Nations in general where compension of some type for some reason hasn’t been the primary topic of conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

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Well, keep wondering why the problem doesn't fix itself then.

"We wouldn't have to treat Indians like Indians if they'd just stop acting like Indians" seems more expensive in the long run, but what do I know.

Step one. Start taking responsibility for your own outcomes and stop blaming everyone else for all your problems.

I don’t care if the problem fixes itself, just don’t ask the rest of society to solve it for you. Then complain about the solutions indefinitely.

Basically come up with one final gib, and let’s just move the fuck on and let them burn their society down all by themselves.

[Buster]

@killramos saying what needs to be said

[Bytem3]

What killramos said is spot on

What happened was bad no question but it will be used as a crutch for so many

Bad things happen to good people, it’s their choice if they wish to wallow in pity eternally or not

Reserves are so counter to being a good intention… people are rewarded monetarily for staying in a shitty place so the likelihood that people leave is minimal thus perpetuating and amplifying the garbage situation that are all in

Don’t get me started on the corruption in most reserves. It’s disgusting and blatantly obvious yet nobody chooses to do anything about it.

[SKR]

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Trial would require exhuming all graves, performing a study of each (well decomposed) body to determine probable cause of death, determining who among an entire fleet of people at each school 50+ years ago might have caused any intentional death, tracking down if that person is alive (minimum of mid 70’s?), figuring out how to take the cases to trial, trying to find reliable witnesses that could help push the burden of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.

You starting to see why killramos is saying this is logistically not plausible? This isn’t Nuremberg where the charges are being up a year after the events occurred.

There was a Nazi tried and convicted in 2020, so I don't know what to tell you. It sure looks like it can be done. They probably don't even have the bodies. (Edit: I wasn't the one who brought up Nazis, by the way.)

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Step one. Start taking responsibility for your own outcomes and stop blaming everyone else for all your problems.

I don’t care if the problem fixes itself, just don’t ask the rest of society to solve it for you. Then complain about the solutions indefinitely.

Basically come up with one final gib, and let’s just move the fuck on and let them burn their society down all by themselves.

I don't blame the children for being taken into residential schools. I guess that's the difference.

I'm not talking about every FN issue since whitey rowed over on a boat. A lot of that is their own problem, and should be theirs to fix. I have no desire to solve every little thing they want done.

I'm not even saying anything would come of it. All I'm saying is at least giving the appearance that we give even half of a shit might go a long way toward fixing the other things, and if we happen to roll up a few people who did bad shit along the way, all the better.

I guess that's all I can say. I don't think it's the kids' fault for whatever happened to them in those schools, and I don't think I can be convinced otherwise. I would hold this position no matter what color the kids were, or what their circumstances were. I don't even like kids.

I don't think the answer is to give them more money, if that counts for anything.

[ZenOps]

It's pretty easy to say just score two goals in five minutes to tie the game. But doing it is something completely different.

From a standpoint of never having a disadvantage the entire game, never put in the penalty box for a bad call, it looks disingenuous.

[SKR]

I have no idea what ZenOps is saying. If he's agreeing with me, I take everything back.

[finboy]

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There was a Nazi tried and convicted in 2020, so I don't know what to tell you. It sure looks like it can be done. They probably don't even have the bodies. (Edit: I wasn't the one who brought up Nazis, by the way.)

Records on concentration camps and following up has been going on since 1945. This would be starting essentially from scratch (the church *might* have records?), with no clear indication which children died from unnatural causes vs natural, figuring out how to even charge a case with almost no evidence, and hoping that any of the staff (who would be in their 80’s) might stay alive long enough to see a court room.

I can understand why people might want to see justice, but I don’t think many are thinking through *how* it would be possible.

I guess that's all I can say. I don't think it's the kids' fault for whatever happened to them in those schools, and I don't think I can be convinced otherwise. I would hold this position no matter what color the kids were, or what their circumstances were. I don't even like kids.

I haven’t seen anyone in this thread make the claim that it is the fault of the students.

[ZenOps]

I neither agree nor disagree, but choose magenta.

[SKR]

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(the church *might* have records?)

Then it *might* be worth finding out if they do or not?

Maybe they'd find evidence of other crimes that you don't need fresh corpses for. How many priests have been charged and convicted from abuse that happened decades ago?

It can't hurt just to look and see what evidence is available.

I can't believe I'm the one defending something as stupid as a fuckin kid.

Edit: I had a few good zingers last week that I didn't any + rep for, and now I'm just lashing out. If you fucks would give me the credit I deserve I wouldn't have to do things like this. This is your guys' fault.

[finboy]

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Then it *might* be worth finding out if they do or not?

Maybe they'd find evidence of other crimes that you don't need fresh corpses for. How many priests have been charged and convicted from abuse that happened decades ago?

It can't hurt just to look and see what evidence is available.

I can't believe I'm the one defending something as stupid as a fuckin kid.

Edit: I had a few good zingers last week that I didn't any + rep for, and now I'm just lashing out. If you fucks would give me the credit I deserve I wouldn't have to do things like this. This is your guys' fault.

I suspect the church in Rome does not care much what the prime minister in Canada wants

[SKR]

Rome can suck my cock from dawn until dusk. See if that changes their tune.

[finboy]

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Rome can suck my cock from dawn until dusk. See if that changes their tune.

You are likely 25 years too old for that request, otherwise we might be able to make that trade for those records

[jutes]

The government has already paid out $3billion, that’s a B not a M, to over 28,000 victims of abuse. Legally, what is the crown going to do and who do they prosecute, themselves? The church? You have to prove without a reasonable doubt that those deaths were criminal. It would be an almost impossible and expensive task. Meanwhile we have issues facing indigenous today that need the real focus and attention.