Putin vs Ukraine.

[ExtraSlow]

@Kloubek , what I mean is that if the USA or West Europe wanted fewer dead Ukrainians AS A PRIMARY GOAL they would have pushed for negotiated settlement from the start.

They have prioritized other goals. I think that's the part that's obvious.

Now, what SHOULD their goals be? What's "the right thing to do" from an ethical perspective? That's where people seem to disagree.

Myself, I don't know what the actual goals are, and I don't believe the stated goals, so I can't really evaluate the situation.

[Yolobimmer]

Leaked death tolls to Feb.

71,000 ukranians, 16,000 Russians.

Honest Miley says it's a "mistake"

https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-inv...r-were-leaked/

- - - Updated - - -

4 hour life expectancy for Ukranain soldiers.

https://nypost.com/2023/02/23/life-e...hours-soldier/

[BerserkerCatSplat]

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@Kloubek , what I mean is that if the USA or West Europe wanted fewer dead Ukrainians AS A PRIMARY GOAL they would have pushed for negotiated settlement from the start.

[Kloubek]

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Leaked death tolls to Feb.

You are citing an article that talks about leaked documents where the 1st and 3rd paragraphs both mention that they question the authenticity of the documents. Yet, you hold this as concrete information. Brilliant.

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I've never seen someone as willfully ignorant as you.

So I'm guessing your home is void of mirrors?

[Kloubek]

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@Kloubek , what I mean is that if the USA or West Europe wanted fewer dead Ukrainians AS A PRIMARY GOAL they would have pushed for negotiated settlement from the start.

Well, that certainly would have resulted in fewer dead Ukranians, no doubt. But even with the US pushing for it, I'm not sure there are any guarantees they would have agreed. I know there is information out there claiming it was the US who pushed Ukraine not to give up their territory in exchange for the war to end in the first place, but do we really know? There's so much propaganda from both sides that it's hard to know who's telling the truth in any given aspect of this war.

But yes, if it was solely up to the US, and their primary objective was to save Ukrainian lives, Ukraine would have ceded its territory instead.

[Yolobimmer]

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You are citing an article that talks about leaked documents where the 1st and 3rd paragraphs both mention that they question the authenticity of the documents. Yet, you hold this as concrete information. Brilliant.



So I'm guessing your home is void of mirrors?

The documents ended up being legit. I think you've heard of them, now playing ignorant again.

Remember, they arrested the kid that leaked them?? Lol

Try this. Search about Ukraine war, Macgregor, Ritter, McGovern, Sachs, Maersheimer etc, and then repeat the search through a VPN.

You'll be shocked how much stuff is actively blocked here. ALL we get is fake news. All the real info is suppressed.

[littledan]

if you even just watch the youtube war videos put out by military summary (russian biased), history legends (neutral - russian biased), NWE reports (western biased), weeb union (neutral), etc you can get a pretty good understanding of what is going on at the front each day and where the truth lies with respect to things like casualties etc. If you are just reading CNN/MSNBC/CBC etc you are getting an extremely biased / propaganda view which will not be accurate at all.

[Kloubek]

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if you even just watch the youtube war videos put out by military summary (russian biased), history legends (neutral - russian biased), NWE reports (western biased), weeb union (neutral), etc you can get a pretty good understanding of what is going on at the front each day and where the truth lies with respect to things like casualties etc. If you are just reading CNN/MSNBC/CBC etc you are getting an extremely biased / propaganda view which will not be accurate at all.

Neither side is accurate. Generally, Russia lies about their losses, and Ukraine refuse to reveal theirs and when they do, they are often also a bunch of BS too. Neither want to show weakness but both are hurting bad from this.

I'm guessing there is a large amount of "missing" from both sides as well, which further skews the numbers. Naturally, both sides won't want to count the missing into their casualty figure. The bones of soldiers from each side will be discovered for centuries.

[Buster]

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Oh, I think its a lot more than that. In Bahkmut alone, I believe Russia just admitted 20,000 dead on their side, just to take that city. About 10,000 convicts, and 10,000 conscripts. Now, just like China, if they publish a number, you better believe it's significantly worse since their governments aren't held accountable for anything resembling accuracy. Western/Ukranians report upwards of 100,000 Russians dead for the same event. Chances are, the real numbers are somewhere in the middle.

By the same accounts, they estimate minimum 100,000 up to over 200,000 dead on the Russian side during this campaign on the whole. It is generally accepted that the losses of Russians is far higher than that of the Ukranians, but rest assured they've lost a ton of soldiers as well. Now, one may say - too bad... they're soldiers. They know what they were getting themselves into. In some cases, sure. But the fact is, neither side allows their men to "opt out". If they want you to go, you're going. So it isn't like everyone truly wants to be there.

Then there are the civilians, and with so many missing who knows what that number truly is but it's certainly in the tens of thousands.

So, you say - who cares? On a global level, that volume is nothing. And you're right. But yet, they were people with lives. Sons, daughters, fathers, mothers.

Why do we care? We care because it's human nature to wish for the betterment of others. By your "model", why does anybody care about anyone or anything? Why worry about your own family when that 1 person is even less significant in the world than those lost in Ukraine? Seems to me your model works just fine until it comes to your own personal interests. And if your own interests is the only thing that keeps you caring about someone, then I think you may be missing the purpose of caring in the first place.

But don't think that just because we care, we are all broken up about it. I don't know these people, and it doesn't affect me personally. But that doesn't negate having a heart, sympathy and empathy.

It's the selective caring that is puzzling.

[Xtrema]

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Myself, I don't know what the actual goals are, and I don't believe the stated goals, so I can't really evaluate the situation.

To stop a giant Russia/China/Europe coalition and stop the world from being US centric to China centric. That's what the dead Ukrainians are fighting for.

Putin got baited and Xi's plan at best is put on pause or at worse ends in failure.

Now inflation has take a good chunk of disposable income from everyone and governments (especially BRI partners) are all defaulting. China is kinda fucked from what I can see and nobody knows when that effect is going to come around to North America yet as we are staring at another rate hike soon.

And there are so much noise out there as the front stop being this war.

Fun times.

[Buster]

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To stop a giant Russia/China/Europe coalition and stop the world from being US centric to China centric. That's what the dead Ukrainians are fighting for.

Putin got baited and Xi's plan at best is put on pause or at worse ends in failure.

Now inflation has take a good chunk of disposable income from everyone and governments (especially BRI partners) are all defaulting. China is kinda fucked from what I can see and nobody knows when that effect is going to come around to North America yet as we are staring at another rate hike soon.

And there are so much noise out there as the front stop being this war.

Fun times.

If the current economic climate resolves itself with Ukraine being the only war-like event, then we can count ourselves lucky.

[Tik-Tok]

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If the current economic climate resolves itself with Ukraine being the only war-like event, then we can count ourselves lucky.

Are you suggesting we're in a economic climate... emergency?

[ExtraSlow]

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To stop a giant Russia/China/Europe coalition and stop the world from being US centric to China centric. That's what the dead Ukrainians are fighting for.

Putin got baited and Xi's plan at best is put on pause or at worse ends in failure.

Now inflation has take a good chunk of disposable income from everyone and governments (especially BRI partners) are all defaulting. China is kinda fucked from what I can see and nobody knows when that effect is going to come around to North America yet as we are staring at another rate hike soon.

And there are so much noise out there as the front stop being this war.

Fun times.

Its some 5d chess in this post.

[Kloubek]

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It's the selective caring that is puzzling.

You aren't wrong.

Some things that have become increasing factors are ease of access to both facts and propaganda, and a greater awareness and capability of foreign countries to get involved in overseas events.

But I think it mainly comes down to how much of a common bond there is between the viewer and the victim. Ie: I can hear about someone getting hit and killed by a car, but it leaves much more of an impact if we knew them or had a prior interaction with the victim. If the victim was a child, I might care more because I have a child of my own, or perhaps I had a 3rd degree of separation from the kid which makes me take a greater interest. The variables are many.

This all came together for Ukraine, whereby they are largely Caucasian, were striving for adoption of European/western ideologies, and our governments decided to support Ukraine so we tend to do so as well out of solidarity and common values.

[Buster]

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You aren't wrong.

Some things that have become increasing factors are ease of access to both facts and propaganda, and a greater awareness and capability of foreign countries to get involved in overseas events.

But I think it mainly comes down to how much of a common bond there is between the viewer and the victim. Ie: I can hear about someone getting hit and killed by a car, but it leaves much more of an impact if we knew them or had a prior interaction with the victim. If the victim was a child, I might care more because I have a child of my own, or perhaps I had a 3rd degree of separation from the kid which makes me take a greater interest. The variables are many.

This all came together for Ukraine, whereby they are largely Caucasian, were striving for adoption of European/western ideologies, and our governments decided to support Ukraine so we tend to do so as well out of solidarity and common values.

Yes, people like that little dopamine hit from a sense of tribalism. They feel better about themselves for caring about some people more than others because they perceive it as a virtue.

It's largely the same phenomenon that makes people proud of the accomplishments of others of their nationality. Which makes no sense. How can you be "proud" of some speed-skater from Halifax or some shit, as if you had something to do with their success?

It's all very instinctual and base and my preference is to approach these things with contemplation and deliberate decisions. So I ask myself, do I really care more about the people that died in Ukraine compared to the other 70 million that died this year? I don't see any reason to, so I do not.

But I've never been one to be interested in the tendencies of the everyman.

[ZenOps]

Much white male bias sure. Imagine if Ike Turner did 22 bombing runs over Europe. Would he even be a consideration for President of the USA? Violence being awarded, maybe, maybe.

Wherner Von Braun arguably should have been put in jail for several life sentences. But they hired him as the head of NASA instead.

Did Elizabeth Holmes get thrown in jail because not male? I'm thinking it.

Will DeSantis be awarded with power for being a communist? Putin certainly did it, and also more of a Trillionaire than Musk.

[littledan]

Good analysis in this video!

[ZenOps]

If USA sends F-16, should they sent pilots as well? Or do complete AI/remote control. Unmanned.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

"Former catering business owner turned Russia-aligned mercenary declares Ukrainian invasion unjustified, rolls into Russia proper and captures military headquarters before marching on Moscow" wasn't on my 2023 bingo card but holy hell is this some wild shit.

[killramos]

Yea. This war was getting boring for a while.

This is interesting again.