Calgary police shooting

[vengie]

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Gondek is a train wreck but I do think it does matter if it was a mental episode or not. During a mental episode that person is not himself and should be treated in a different manner then lets say a criminal who is who he is no a regular day.

This wasn't a failure of the police.

This was a failure of his family and his community which he was apparently a massive part of.
They should have been the ones to ensure his mental health is kept in check.

If he was silent about his demons, well that's on him.

Either way, charging at officers and stabbing a police dog is a great way to pay the price, and he did.

[tirebob]

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How would you have done things differently, without putting the officers or social workers in harms way, given the fact negotiating and non-lethal force did not work to de-escalate the situation? How would you treat an aggressive person having a mental health crisis with a lethal weapon different from your regular run of the mill normal citizen who has a knife and is attacking people and police? This is an honest question because I cannot fathom how there would be any alternate approach that wouldn't put other people in a situation where they could get hurt or killed.

As someone who has suffered my own bout of severe mental health issues I can definitely look back and say the safety of everyone else would have trumped mine regardless of the mental state and that is 100% how it should be.

This ^^^

You can say what "might" have worked after looking at it a thousand times after the fact, but while standing there, watching every second unfold in front of you trying your best to get the individual comply and not injure or kill anyone in his immediate vicinity, then he finally snaps and comes at you in full obvious attack mode and knowing he has a knife in his hand, their response at that point was absolutely not unreasonable.

That said, these types of things should always be examined under a microscope. Not to look for any wrong on the officers part who did shoot the guy, but to evaluate it in the hopes of potentially finding some sort of learning moment. How maybe in the future things could be done differently or whatever, but it certainly should not be approached from the perspective that the officer is in the wrong here.

jabjab you might think you would have acted differently in that guys spot, but if you were there 19 times out of 20 you would have plugged the guy too. The one time you didn't is the one time the knife would have been in your neck. When adrenaline and crazy meet it is not going to ever be a nice easy jujitsu move to save the day.

[jutes]

Rape, pillage, murder and aggressive crimes are ok if you're having a mental episode. You are excused from law enforcement and should be dealt with by social workers. We have a limited number of humans on this planet - all lives matter!

[littledan]

those cops did everything they could do to not shoot anyone that day. They literally had no choice and in my opinion even waited too long to deploy lethal force which put themselves in harms way. So they were basically extra brave and willing to forgo some personal safety to try and save this guy until it was beyond no choice.

[Tik-Tok]

They didn't try hugging it out. Which is apparently what some people want them to do with a knife wielding mental patient.

[killramos]

Don’t worry guys, next time the police get a call like this I have it on good faith that we will just call in Jyoti and Walcott to deescalate on behalf of the police.

She can make good use of that social work diploma.

[jabjab]

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How would you have done things differently, without putting the officers or social workers in harms way, given the fact negotiating and non-lethal force did not work to de-escalate the situation? How would you treat an aggressive person having a mental health crisis with a lethal weapon different from your regular run of the mill normal citizen who has a knife and is attacking people and police? This is an honest question because I cannot fathom how there would be any alternate approach that wouldn't put other people in a situation where they could get hurt or killed.

As someone who has suffered my own bout of severe mental health issues I can definitely look back and say the safety of everyone else would have trumped mine regardless of the mental state and that is 100% how it should be.

Well firstly, i would have not made a large police presence infront of the victim. Having guns draw and people yelling instrucutions that he may have not understood can often heighten the arousal of someone in a situation like that. What I would do next , I'm honestly not sure but having one person to engage the person while perhaps a trained officer located where he can't see him and be ready to shoot him in the leg , buttocks , arm if things get out of hand. This might or might not be enough to get him disarmed and then move in but have paramedics right there to inject him with (forget the name of the drug) that pretty much puts you to sleep and be ready to administer life saving measures.

The police chief on the news saying they didn't know he was having a mental health episode isn't pretty ridiculous, its fairly obvious and by standers where telling them that.

[littledan]

I know when im being charged at by a knife weilding madman, I want a sniper hidden from view trying to shoot the perp in the leg before he can stab me to death... I mean. What could go wrong.

[jabjab]

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This ^^^

You can say what "might" have worked after looking at it a thousand times after the fact, but while standing there, watching every second unfold in front of you trying your best to get the individual comply and not injure or kill anyone in his immediate vicinity, then he finally snaps and comes at you in full obvious attack mode and knowing he has a knife in his hand, their response at that point was absolutely not unreasonable.

That said, these types of things should always be examined under a microscope. Not to look for any wrong on the officers part who did shoot the guy, but to evaluate it in the hopes of potentially finding some sort of learning moment. How maybe in the future things could be done differently or whatever, but it certainly should not be approached from the perspective that the officer is in the wrong here.

jabjab you might think you would have acted differently in that guys spot, but if you were there 19 times out of 20 you would have plugged the guy too. The one time you didn't is the one time the knife would have been in your neck. When adrenaline and crazy meet it is not going to ever be a nice easy jujitsu move to save the day.

all valid points but I think that is why cps should have special training for situations like this.

Look at the Anthony Heffernan case many years ago, he was high on drugs and holding a syringe with no needle in it and cops shot him 3 times or so in the head. They thought he was a threat to their safety but when he just needed medical attention.

- - - Updated - - -

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I know when im being charged at by a knife weilding madman, I want a sniper hidden from view trying to shoot the perp in the leg before he can stab me to death... I mean. What could go wrong.

he began charging when they shot him with the bean bag or whatever. Having been a "war child" this can trigger something in his mind that he's under attack. This guy was obviously not trained to use any weapon.

[Xtrema]

While there may be some sensitivity training improvement to be had, but you really can't tell if it's PTSD, some mental issue or drug induced ones.

They basically have used all non-lethal options available before pulling the guns out.

Don't expect every doctor as House MD and every cop can spot the difference of different mental illness someone is suffering.

Fact is there are plenty of mental illness undiagnosed and untreated in the population. COVID doesn't help.

[ExtraSlow]

I'd go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of people shot by cops ARE having some kind of mental health crisis. That doesn't mean the cops did anything incorrectly.

[jabjab]

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I'd go out on a limb and say that the vast majority of people shot by cops ARE having some kind of mental health crisis. That doesn't mean the cops did anything incorrectly.

Agreed but this now shows a lack of training for ALL situations. I think alot of deaths like this could be avoided.

[ExtraSlow]

That's not what this shows at all.

[TurboMedic]

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but having one person to engage the person while perhaps a trained officer located where he can't see him and be ready to shoot him in the leg , buttocks , arm if things get out of hand. This might or might not be enough to get him disarmed and then move in but have paramedics right there to inject him with (forget the name of the drug) that pretty much puts you to sleep and be ready to administer life saving measures.

Alright because you don't get it, I will give you FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of these situations. I have personally dealt with too many people who have been shot in places other than what will kill you quickly, and in a situation that they are jacked up, scared, aggressive, on drugs, WHATEVER it may be, those shots have NO EFFECT on their desire or most often ability to move, and assault. You can't act as though getting shot in the ass makes someone tap out, it just doesn't. I've had people shot in the abdomen, and they still have fight in them. I had a guy shot in the face, STILL had no issues doing whatever he was doing due to his state. Its 2 shots mass, then head. Neutralize the threat entirely, no questions asked. If lethal force has been chosen (and lets be straight up, the vic chose for them, not the officers), then the expectation is that it is lethal, period.

And on your second point, the drug you're speaking of is midazolam, and it takes 10-15min to actually put someone to sleep that way. So you're fighting someone with a weapon for that long before they subdue? Fat chance. Paramedics hold back on those calls entirely until CPS clear them, and if there is someone that is shot and has a weapon nearby, nobody is rushing to that person, nobody is allowed to, and nobody is going to put themselves in danger, that is not the job no matter what you think. They can easily play possum and attack when close, that's why nobody rushes up, that's why they cuff people that may appear dead, that's why they yell drop the weapon at someone you presume is dead. These rules are in place because it has happened somewhere sometime.

You need to stop watching movies, and stop making assumptions about something you know nothing about, because your ideas and suggestions are incorrect on every single level.

[schurchill39]

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Agreed but this now shows a lack of training for ALL situations. I think alot of deaths like this could be avoided.

I think this shows excellent training. If we really had to reach for what went wrong we could say that the officers waited TOO long to apply lethal force and put themselves and their colleagues (including the dog) in harms way before neutralizing the threat.

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That's not what this shows at all.

Bingo

EDIT: I'm just going to leave this here. This happened in a controlled situation where the threat level was way lower and there was no protection for the social worker dealing with someone with mental health issues

[vengie]

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Alright because you don't get it, I will give you FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of these situations. I have personally dealt with too many people who have been shot in places other than what will kill you quickly, and in a situation that they are jacked up, scared, aggressive, on drugs, WHATEVER it may be, those shots have NO EFFECT on their desire or most often ability to move, and assault. You can't act as though getting shot in the ass makes someone tap out, it just doesn't. I've had people shot in the abdomen, and they still have fight in them. I had a guy shot in the face, STILL had no issues doing whatever he was doing due to his state. Its 2 shots mass, then head. Neutralize the threat entirely, no questions asked. If lethal force has been chosen (and lets be straight up, the vic chose for them, not the officers), then the expectation is that it is lethal, period.

And on your second point, the drug you're speaking of is midazolam, and it takes 10-15min to actually put someone to sleep that way. So you're fighting someone with a weapon for that long before they subdue? Fat chance. Paramedics hold back on those calls entirely until CPS clear them, and if there is someone that is shot and has a weapon nearby, nobody is rushing to that person, nobody is allowed to, and nobody is going to put themselves in danger, that is not the job no matter what you think. They can easily play possum and attack when close, that's why nobody rushes up, that's why they cuff people that may appear dead, that's why they yell drop the weapon at someone you presume is dead. These rules are in place because it has happened somewhere sometime.

You need to stop watching movies, and stop making assumptions about something you know nothing about, because your ideas and suggestions are incorrect on every single level.

But zombieland taught me "double tap" is the preferred method!

But in all seriousness...
Unable to rep currently, but will when I can.
Great post and great perspective.

[90_Shelby]

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EDIT: I'm just going to leave this here. This happened in a controlled situation where the threat level was way lower and there was no protection for the social worker dealing with someone with mental health issues

She probably didn't recertify one of her training courses therefore she wasn't qualified to de-escalate that situation therefore she should have arranged for a sniper hiding in the ventilation system, just in case.

[Buster]

We need a corollary to "don't be poor":

Don't be crazy.

[riander5]

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Gondek is a train wreck but I do think it does matter if it was a mental episode or not. During a mental episode that person is not himself and should be treated in a different manner then lets say a criminal who is who he is no a regular day.

Calgary Police - "Sir are you having a mental episode"

Crazy Person With Weapon - "Yes I am thank you for asking"

Calgary Police - "Holster your weapons boys"

The CPS can't hire you fast enough.

[Toilet_X]

I got nipped by a police dog once. Fuckin' thing thought it got the best of me too until it died a slow battle with aids.