Calgary police shooting

[shakalaka]

The deployment of police dog, bean bag guns, taser are ALL non-lethal measures to try and bring a perp under control. Clearly all those were deployed in this instance and the lethal move was done as a last resort. Couldn't have asked for much more from the police under the circumstances. I truly feel bad for this guy and his family, but he's gone now. It's the officer that had to shoot him will have to live with it for the rest of his life that I also feel bad for. These guys aren't heartless or emotionless people that can go around killing people without feeling the guilt that comes with it. I hope he knows there is nothing else he could have done under the circumstances to prevent the end result.

[jabjab]

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Alright because you don't get it, I will give you FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of these situations. I have personally dealt with too many people who have been shot in places other than what will kill you quickly, and in a situation that they are jacked up, scared, aggressive, on drugs, WHATEVER it may be, those shots have NO EFFECT on their desire or most often ability to move, and assault. You can't act as though getting shot in the ass makes someone tap out, it just doesn't. I've had people shot in the abdomen, and they still have fight in them. I had a guy shot in the face, STILL had no issues doing whatever he was doing due to his state. Its 2 shots mass, then head. Neutralize the threat entirely, no questions asked. If lethal force has been chosen (and lets be straight up, the vic chose for them, not the officers), then the expectation is that it is lethal, period.

And on your second point, the drug you're speaking of is midazolam, and it takes 10-15min to actually put someone to sleep that way. So you're fighting someone with a weapon for that long before they subdue? Fat chance. Paramedics hold back on those calls entirely until CPS clear them, and if there is someone that is shot and has a weapon nearby, nobody is rushing to that person, nobody is allowed to, and nobody is going to put themselves in danger, that is not the job no matter what you think. They can easily play possum and attack when close, that's why nobody rushes up, that's why they cuff people that may appear dead, that's why they yell drop the weapon at someone you presume is dead. These rules are in place because it has happened somewhere sometime.

You need to stop watching movies, and stop making assumptions about something you know nothing about, because your ideas and suggestions are incorrect on every single level.

Yes, I do agree with you on that a shot won't slow them down but it might help disarm them. The point is to get close enough to administer midazolam without him having any weapons...boohoo he may punch you but if you're a cop I think that comes with the risk of the job. You could just leave him for 15mins until it kicks in and have paramedics very near by. Having that many cops in front of him didn't help his situation.

So you're telling me the right way to handle this is wait until he attacks and then shoot to kill?

[Sentry]

"Punch you" while holding a knife = you are dead

[shakalaka]

I also hope that ASIRT or other officials do not make an example out of this officer just to appease the media and the public outcry that has been caused due to this. That would be the worst possible move considering the situations police often find themselves in. Last thing you want is police scared to tackle a perp according to what needs to be done due to the risk of repercussions, leading the perp to harm the police or other innocent people.

[Gman.45]

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Alright because you don't get it, I will give you FIRST HAND ACCOUNT of these situations. I have personally dealt with too many people who have been shot in places other than what will kill you quickly, and in a situation that they are jacked up, scared, aggressive, on drugs, WHATEVER it may be, those shots have NO EFFECT on their desire or most often ability to move, and assault. You can't act as though getting shot in the ass makes someone tap out, it just doesn't. I've had people shot in the abdomen, and they still have fight in them. I had a guy shot in the face, STILL had no issues doing whatever he was doing due to his state. Its 2 shots mass, then head. Neutralize the threat entirely, no questions asked. If lethal force has been chosen (and lets be straight up, the vic chose for them, not the officers), then the expectation is that it is lethal, period.

And on your second point, the drug you're speaking of is midazolam, and it takes 10-15min to actually put someone to sleep that way. So you're fighting someone with a weapon for that long before they subdue? Fat chance. Paramedics hold back on those calls entirely until CPS clear them, and if there is someone that is shot and has a weapon nearby, nobody is rushing to that person, nobody is allowed to, and nobody is going to put themselves in danger, that is not the job no matter what you think. They can easily play possum and attack when close, that's why nobody rushes up, that's why they cuff people that may appear dead, that's why they yell drop the weapon at someone you presume is dead. These rules are in place because it has happened somewhere sometime.

You need to stop watching movies, and stop making assumptions about something you know nothing about, because your ideas and suggestions are incorrect on every single level.

Exceptionally well written post, especially regarding the procedures EMS has to deal with when regarding patients who have been violent or threatening prior to being incapacitated by L/E.

Also, regarding the magic "wounding" of threats by leg/butt/arm/whatever shots - bullet wounds are incredibly random in their effects, and ANY shot placement outside of a solid round through the brain, or in particular the spine, can and have left the threat able to fight on, sometimes for an unbelievable amount of time. I've seen a fair number of people shot, primarily by rifles/mgs in the 556/762 calibers, which are FAR more lethal than handgun rounds, and even those hit in the torso have continued to fight, sometimes even with their heart blown right out. It happens, and because it happens, in order to stop threats and the nature of the difficulties in achieving hits on moving targets (and stationary ones) under stress conditions, shooting for center mass is how L/E is trained across the board, outside of specialty units which get a LOT more training in shooting, and even then their only other target is the head, specifically right under the nose and above the upper lip, which delivers the round to the spot where the spine meets the brain, and is they only reliable off switch in the human body.

all valid points but I think that is why cps should have special training for situations like this.

JabJab, it's impossible to have special training for every conceivable situation. Absolutely impossible. In this situation, what you're saying is that having 1 officer talk, and one hidden to "shoot him in the ass", is the largest presence L/E should have been. So, what happens when the subject charges officer talky talk, stabs him, and officer 2 in hiding can't close with the threat because he's in hiding, and also can't take a shot because the target has closed distance with his partner, who is now in the line of fire? Now the subject is literally free to attack anyone filming the incident as officer 2 will be out of range or have civilians in the background of his shot as that's where the treat has moved, while officer friendly talk lies bleeding out on the ground. You NEED to have overmatch in ALL situations of armed conflict and standoff. You never attack/engage any threat without at least a 3 to 1 advantage unless it's impossible to get that advantage and an attack is necessary. Every military school in the world teaches this, and it applies to L/E involved in armed threat situations as well.

[rage2]

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So you're telling me the right way to handle this is wait until he attacks and then shoot to kill?

No, the right way would be to use non lethal force, such as rubber bullets, taser, or maybe even k9 to try and disarm him. If that fails, and only if that fails, and he’s actively attacking with a weapon putting others (cops, bystanders) at risk, that’s the only time they should shoot to kill.

[riander5]

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No, the right way would be to use non lethal force, such as rubber bullets, taser, or maybe even k9 to try and disarm him. If that fails, and only if that fails, and he’s actively attacking with a weapon putting others (cops, bystanders) at risk, that’s the only time they should shoot to kill.

Rage had to come in and own jabjab

[killramos]

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Rage had to come in and own jabjab

Jibberjabber does a remarkable job of owning himself

[88CRX]

I'm just glad the cops didn't get jabjab'd.

[jabjab]

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No, the right way would be to use non lethal force, such as rubber bullets, taser, or maybe even k9 to try and disarm him. If that fails, and only if that fails, and he’s actively attacking with a weapon putting others (cops, bystanders) at risk, that’s the only time they should shoot to kill.

Ok, yes BUT turbomedic previously said that often rubber bullets, tasers etc don't have an effect on someone who is in a manic episode. So if that is the case it sounds like the only option is to kill him. There needs to be other ways for situations like this.

[Masked Bandit]

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Ok, yes BUT turbomedic previously said that often rubber bullets, tasers etc don't have an effect on someone who is in a manic episode. So if that is the case it sounds like the only option is to kill him. There needs to be other ways for situations like this.

Such as?

[?????]

I think when the general public calls for non-lethal methods they have something like these videos on their mind.
Just did a quick google search but they happen to be from China so probably don't get to see daylight again anyways. But the optics are good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DpRk6DjmrY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_zJDmtqOg4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_s2rZR7IkQ



I realize every situation is different and I'm with the CPS did everything correctly.

[sabad66]

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Such as?

Well according to some instagram comments, cops should be trained in hand to hand combat against guys with knives

[killramos]

It certainly would be cool if every member of CPS was Jason Bourne

[Shlade]

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Such as?

..............deployable taser nets!!!!

I need investors for this idea

[Xtrema]

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Well according to some instagram comments, cops should be trained in hand to hand combat against guys with knives

It's easy, just mash x,x,y,b right?

[rage2]

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Such as?

[Maxx Mazda]

So, is the dog ok?

[shakalaka]

I think it likes to be referred to as Officer Dog.

And yes, it is fine from what I understand.

[vengie]

Jabjab has quite literally had the three people most equipped to discuss what happened on this forum discuss what happened and have all agreed the police did the right thing.
@shakalaka = lawyer @TurboMedic = advanced care (?) paramedic @Gman.45 = Military/ LE/ serious advanced weapons training (?)

Yet you are still fighting this over a philosophical difference of opinion.