Another firearm debate (split)

[birdman86]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You can have a pistol, unloaded, in a safe next to a bombed up mag. Someone meth head starts kicking your door down, you'll have enough time to retrieve pistol, load, and rack it.

I have to point out that this can bite you in the ass. They've successfully argued that you keep the gun+ammo in the bedroom because you want to use it if someone breaks in, therefore you must want to murder. Now, if the master bedroom happens to be in the basement, or they're breaking in through a window where you had time to run downstairs and grab the gun from the safe..

Just sayin so you're aware.

[Yolobimmer]

You can earn the privilege of owning a gun, like you earn the privilege of driving.

100% should not be some "right". That's stupid as fuck.

[Kloubek]

The rule in Canada is that you are allowed to use whatever amount of force is required to defend yourself from imminent peril. It's purposely left open to interpretation to ensure we don't interpret it as a castle law which sees people in the US needlessly shooting each other out of fear.

This simply means that if you shoot someone, you need to be able to justify that it was required because you feared for your safety. The court will determine if you have a valid case. So if one goes this route, they had better a good excuse of why they felt they needed to pull that trigger. Note that an intruder simply walking towards the firearm user could be enough, as a wrestle for the weapon would put the owner's life in peril. If you're a really big guy, this might not fly. Or if you can convince the court that the hacksaw in the intruder's hand looked like a gun in the dark. Just come up with something believable, and you should be fine. But there has to be a reason you felt threatened above simply somebody being in your home. To me, that SHOULD be enough - but it's not.

And, as mentioned, if you shoot someone in the back you're going to have a difficult time pleading your case.

As for my own home security situation, my guns are in a custom secret hidden spot that literally nobody would look. (This was important due to having a young son, as well as the fear of someone stealing them if they manage to bypass my security system while we're out), but I also have very quick access due to the way I set it up. My triggers are locked as per law, but if I heard someone break down my front door, even if they bolted upstairs I'd still have time to be racked and ready for their arrival.

Fact is, it's highly unlikely ANY of us will have to use our weapons for home defense. This isn't Detroit, so unless you're into shady business the chances of actually needing to use such a weapon are infinitesimally small.

[Inzane]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Why not?

Are we in Texas?

The concept of "punishment should fit the crime" is supposed to mean something, at least in theory.

[DonJuan]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

...
Fact is, it's highly unlikely ANY of us will have to use our weapons for home defense. This isn't Detroit, so unless you're into shady business the chances of actually needing to use such a weapon are infinitesimally small.

What about for catalytic converter defense?

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

You can earn the privilege of owning a gun, like you earn the privilege of driving.

100% should not be some "right". That's stupid as fuck.

+100.

The ones claiming it's their right is exactly the ones who shouldn't have them.

[tirebob]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What's they gonna take in the 10 mins they have before the cops show up?
Now if you wanna talk rural home invasion, I might have different answer.

Attachment 106191

Except for many of us a call to the police is a minimum of 45 minutes and often more like an hour or more... And, for the record, someone breaking into your home while you are present IS home invasion.

Pew Pew

[killramos]

Dude it’s nbd they probably just want some Doritos.

[ExtraSlow]

Do reliable statistics exist about firearms reducing property crime or violence? Like real statistics not feelings? Someone must study this, right?

[DonJuan]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Except for many of us a call to the police is a minimum of 45 minutes and often more like an hour or more... And, for the record, someone breaking into your home while you are present IS home invasion.

Pew Pew

I agree, and I didn't mean to imply that urban and rural home invasions are different crimes. They are definitely both home invasions.

As you describe, there needs to be some time limit in the response time by police. If there is an unreasonable response time then no matter the lock on your "panic room", it should be a reasonable assumption that your life is in danger.

But even now even while I'm thinking of this, what's the person able to steal in an hour? Grab your truck, load it up with your TV's, microwave, beer fridge, doritos, art room paintings etc. It's still not enough for me to justify cleaning skull fragments out of my walls. If they know you are locked in a bedroom and they don't try to enter it. I still say let 'em take it. Touch that door handle though and EMS will be cleaning them up with a shovel.

I'm really struggling to think of something that they can steal that's worth the headache of me having to deal with shooting them and the shitstorm that ensues. I am open to suggestions; (I'm using the assumption that most people keep their jewelry, heirlooms, and high value items in the room they will lock themselves in)

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Do reliable statistics exist about firearms reducing property crime or violence? Like real statistics not feelings? Someone must study this, right?

I was always of the understanding that guns themselves are high on the list of things they are looking to steal.

[vengie]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Do reliable statistics exist about firearms reducing property crime or violence? Like real statistics not feelings? Someone must study this, right?

Short answer.
No they do not.

Longer answer - If someone or small group breaks into my house and my family and I are home I'd much rather have my 14" 12 gauge than a baseball bat.

99.999999999% of us will never be faced with this scenario, so this is all hypothetical.

But from personal experience I have been in many situations where "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" applies.
As such, I'll continue to be a law abiding gun owner/ hobbyist.

[schurchill39]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'm really struggling to think of something that they can steal that's worth the headache of me having to deal with shooting them and the shitstorm that ensues. I am open to suggestions; (I'm using the assumption that most people keep their jewelry, heirlooms, and high value items in the room they will lock themselves in)

Thieves know that usually the valuables (outside of electronics) are located in bedrooms so if they are that brazen to break in when someone is home there is a good likelihood they will try and enter the room you are in. Contrary to popular belief they probably aren't there to just grab a bag of Doritos and leave.

We got broken into a few times in my childhood home when we were away and I think what was way worse than any of the actual material theft that occurred was the feeling of being totally violated. Someone coming into your space, your home, and takes what ever they want with no regard for you or your family. I couldn't imagine being home for it. If you weren't in an area where you could have a quick police response (by what ever terms you personally want to judge "quick") then I wouldn't fault anyone for taking back that feeling of security through what ever means they feel necessary (and that applies to any crime where the victim is left feeling violated).

[tirebob]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I agree, and I didn't mean to imply that urban and rural home invasions are different crimes. They are definitely both home invasions.

As you describe, there needs to be some time limit in the response time by police. If there is an unreasonable response time then no matter the lock on your "panic room", it should be a reasonable assumption that your life is in danger.

But even now even while I'm thinking of this, what's the person able to steal in an hour? Grab your truck, load it up with your TV's, microwave, beer fridge, doritos, art room paintings etc. It's still not enough for me to justify cleaning skull fragments out of my walls. If they know you are locked in a bedroom and they don't try to enter it. I still say let 'em take it. Touch that door handle though and my leniency will be all out. I'm struggling to think of something that they can steal that's worth the headache of me having to deal with shooting them and the shitstorm that ensues. I am open to suggestions; (I would imagine most people keep their jewelry, heirlooms, and high value items in the room they will lock themselves in)

When you have seen enough busts of these guys (and women too) who ransack your neighbours homes, showing up in vehicles loaded to the hilt with tools of the trade and weapons of all kinds, fucked up on meth and whatever else, you pretty much have to assume that everyone of them is going to be like that and so should you. You break into my home and I am there I am not going to play 20 questions trying to ascertain how aggressive your motives are or not. When I make you aware of my presence and you know I am there, the next thing I better see your is you laying on the ground giving up or your back running out the door and heading for the hills. If not I am going to assume the worst and do whatever I have to to neutralize you. Plain and simple.

Do not break into people private properties with criminal intentions if you do not expect to risk you life... It sure isn't difficult to understand.

[JRSC00LUDE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Contrary to popular belief they probably aren't there to just grab a bag of Doritos and leave.

Thaco strikes again.

[DonJuan]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it"

Mind if I use this for the Trackhawk debate with the wife?

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thieves know that usually the valuables (outside of electronics) are located in bedrooms so if they are that brazen to break in when someone is home there is a good likelihood they will try and enter the room you are in. Contrary to popular belief they probably aren't there to just grab a bag of Doritos and leave.

We got broken into a few times in my childhood home when we were away and I think what was way worse than any of the actual material theft that occurred was the feeling of being totally violated. Someone coming into your space, your home, and takes what ever they want with no regard for you or your family. I couldn't imagine being home for it. If you weren't in an area where you could have a quick police response (by what ever terms you personally want to judge "quick") then I wouldn't fault anyone for taking back that feeling of security through what ever means they feel necessary (and that applies to any crime where the victim is left feeling violated).

I'm from a 3rd world country and our home was broken into three times, twice while we were home when I was 5 & 6 years old. They were in and out, TV, stereo, police response time was a couple days later. Poisoned our guard dogs. It's mostly the reason why we left.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

When you have seen enough busts of these guys (and women too) who ransack your neighbours homes, showing up in vehicles loaded to the hilt with tools of the trade and weapons of all kinds, fucked up on meth and whatever else, you pretty much have to assume that everyone of them is going to be like that and so should you. ...

This is why I say rural crime is different, the criminals are going in prepared for violence and banking on slow response time. It's a different kind of criminal, not a smash and grab and run.

[JRSC00LUDE]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Do not break into people private properties with criminal intentions if you do not expect to risk you life... It sure isn't difficult to understand.

This is one of those "I'm getting old" moments but back when I was a kid there were farms and homes that all the shitbags left alone because they KNEW the consequence of getting caught would not be worth anywhere near the possible gain of getting in.

[littledan]

The idea that the police will rescue you is not a strong argument in my opinion, urban, rural, wherever you are. Someone breaks in, lets say they have a knife, or a flathead screwdriver. THat is capable of killing you in seconds. The police will be there in minutes when seconds are what separates you from life and death. I'm not advocating shooting people for property crimes. But to assume that someone breaking and entering is simply there to steal and poses no imminent risk to you or your family is insane. Many of these criminals are high on drugs and will act irrationally, many will be armed, and law-abiding citizens should have the ability to protect themselves using deadly force against a risk of deadly threat

[Thaco]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thieves know that usually the valuables (outside of electronics) are located in bedrooms so if they are that brazen to break in when someone is home there is a good likelihood they will try and enter the room you are in. Contrary to popular belief they probably aren't there to just grab a bag of Doritos and leave.

We got broken into a few times in my childhood home when we were away and I think what was way worse than any of the actual material theft that occurred was the feeling of being totally violated. Someone coming into your space, your home, and takes what ever they want with no regard for you or your family. I couldn't imagine being home for it. If you weren't in an area where you could have a quick police response (by what ever terms you personally want to judge "quick") then I wouldn't fault anyone for taking back that feeling of security through what ever means they feel necessary (and that applies to any crime where the victim is left feeling violated).

and IMO that feeling of bring violated, will be too much for most people to remain rational in a situation like that and make a foolish choice with the use of force.

[Thaco]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Dude it’s nbd they probably just want some Doritos.

the point of the Doritos comment was that it doesn't matter what the fuck they want to steal, it's all the same, they don't break in to harm or kill unless it's targeted, they just want to fund their next hit.

[DonJuan]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The idea that the police will rescue you is not a strong argument in my opinion, urban, rural, wherever you are. Someone breaks in, lets say they have a knife, or a flathead screwdriver. THat is capable of killing you in seconds. The police will be there in minutes when seconds are what separates you from life and death. ...

The argument I'm trying to make here is that doors and locks are the first line of defense. Weapons are second. The first line of defense only buys time for help to arrive. If the time it takes the criminal to get through those lines of defense before help arrives is the limiting factor. If the crack head is already in your bedroom watching you sleep then clearly you have no time. But if you don't have a house alarm or something to notify you that someone is trying to get in, then WTF are you doing?

Why would you give up a perfect bottle neck that is your bedroom door to go room to room clearing? That's what they make FMJ's for. That bedroom door never gets opened until help arrives or ammo is depleated.
(Again rural invasion not included)

[Kloubek]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

What about for catalytic converter defense?

I wish. This is where it gets dicey. The moment that firearm is taken out of your house as protection against a thief, an argument could be had that it was the homeowner who escalated the situation needlessly. *I* would argue that if I was to confront a thief outside my home, I'd feel a whole lot better about my own safety if I was armed.

Do we remember the case in Taber where a dude and his wife came home to find that intruders broke into his home, so he took a hatchet and fucked up the face of one of the intruders as they were escaping? That guy was charged with assault with a weapon, and one count of assault causing bodily harm. It was rather highly publicized which likely helped him, but he had to jump through hoops to have the charges dropped - including a separate program of some sort he had to go to. Had he used a gun, who knows if he would have been let off the hook. Mind you, the intruder would probably be dead so there's that...

I bring up that case because it proves there IS a grey area. We all just want to make sure we stay in the "lighter shades" if such an event is necessary.