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    Default Shops f'n up my Rover

    So, everyone advised I don't buy a Rover as my beater vehicle. They were right. Despite being capable of a lot of my own work, it's been a real pain. And expensive.

    But let's not talk about that. I would like opinions on what has recently occurred.

    I brought my RR to a local Chestermere shop. I haven't had great luck with them, but I figured they could handle an alternator change, so I took it there. Supplied the part from Rockauto.

    Then the fun began. Guess that's lesson #2 learned. First Rovers are shit, second, don't trust a shop for even simple stuff if they aren't good at what they do.

    Anyway, they got it in the next day. Started up and drove in fine. They got the alternator in, but the vehicle threw about 30 various electrical and communication codes they could not explain. It also wouldn't start. It would turn over just fine, but no hint of firing. I cleared the codes, but a half dozen communication codes came back for various modules. They had no idea, so I had to get it towed to Land Rover as a no start condition. It kinda pissed me off that they just threw it back at me, but if they aren't good enough to understand what is happening, not sure what other option there was.

    Next thing that went wrong is at LR, they told me I needed a new battery. This sucks, as I just replaced it 3 months ago. Maybe my fluctuating alternator took it out, I dunno. But whatever- I'll eat the $450. (Typically ridiculous stealership prices). Now today, they tell me it needs a starter.

    What? Its been starting just fine up to this point. And even at the 1st shop it worked, but didn't catch. But now they say the starter is completely dead. $1200. For a fucking starter.

    That'll take another couple of days, then they will try to figure out why it actually won't start.

    My question so far is: Do I just eat these costs? There is a reason it didn't fire up at the first shop. I can't technically prove they did anything specific and the owner is already trying to cast blame on me for my parts, then the make of vehicle, then the fact I have a couple flickering led bulbs which "can mess up your cpus". (Yeah right)

    Then at LR, the starter just *happened* to fail at the same time they are testing the starting circuit? Isn't that... like... almost impossible? But again, how do I prove anything?

    Already into this for 2g, and my vehicle is worse off now than when I started. Yes, LR is a piece of shit. And yes, I knew it would be expensive. But I really feel like I'm being taken for a ride here, and not against fighting for what is fair.

    Are there any legalities which say parts on your car must remain in the same operating condition as they came in?

    Thanks for your thoughts, gentlemen.

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    Sorry about your plight, but thank you for reaffirming I should avoid a RR SC for my next vehicle.

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    maybe drink a beer and back up a few steps here.

    So you said you initially took it in for an alternator change. That was diagnosed by you? How did you know the alternator was faulty? Bad voltage while running? I can say that a bad battery/voltage will 100% generate multiple codes in a RR. PErhaps 1st shop did not have correct tool to clear the codes and those pre-existed the alternator change?

    You also mentioned the starter would start but wouldn't catch. Do you mean the starter motor would spin but the bendix gear wouldn't engage the flywheel?? Perhaps the gear is non-replaceable as per OEM so you need a new starter simply to get the new gear?

    Either way, as bad as it sounds its not that horrible based on your $$ in vs brand new battery, alternator, and starter. You need to think of the MSRP vs maint cost not the depreciated purchase price vs maint cost. Otherwise you will be bitter and angry always lol.

    ALso for parts, maybe try atlantic british over Rock for RR. They seem to have quality stuff. To be fair though, I was quoted $1800 parts only for a new air compressor for my RR sport and I sourced the part on ebay for like $400 and put it in with the help of my mechanic friend so avoided the bullet on that one.
    Tap, Rack, BANG!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kloubek View Post
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    So, everyone advised I don't buy a Rover as my beater vehicle. They were right. Despite being capable of a lot of my own work, it's been a real pain. And expensive.

    But let's not talk about that. I would like opinions on what has recently occurred.

    I brought my RR to a local Chestermere shop. I haven't had great luck with them, but I figured they could handle an alternator change, so I took it there. Supplied the part from Rockauto.

    Then the fun began. Guess that's lesson #2 learned. First Rovers are shit, second, don't trust a shop for even simple stuff if they aren't good at what they do.

    Anyway, they got it in the next day. Started up and drove in fine. They got the alternator in, but the vehicle threw about 30 various electrical and communication codes they could not explain. It also wouldn't start. It would turn over just fine, but no hint of firing. I cleared the codes, but a half dozen communication codes came back for various modules. They had no idea, so I had to get it towed to Land Rover as a no start condition. It kinda pissed me off that they just threw it back at me, but if they aren't good enough to understand what is happening, not sure what other option there was.

    Next thing that went wrong is at LR, they told me I needed a new battery. This sucks, as I just replaced it 3 months ago. Maybe my fluctuating alternator took it out, I dunno. But whatever- I'll eat the $450. (Typically ridiculous stealership prices). Now today, they tell me it needs a starter.

    What? Its been starting just fine up to this point. And even at the 1st shop it worked, but didn't catch. But now they say the starter is completely dead. $1200. For a fucking starter.

    That'll take another couple of days, then they will try to figure out why it actually won't start.

    My question so far is: Do I just eat these costs? There is a reason it didn't fire up at the first shop. I can't technically prove they did anything specific and the owner is already trying to cast blame on me for my parts, then the make of vehicle, then the fact I have a couple flickering led bulbs which "can mess up your cpus". (Yeah right)

    Then at LR, the starter just *happened* to fail at the same time they are testing the starting circuit? Isn't that... like... almost impossible? But again, how do I prove anything?

    Already into this for 2g, and my vehicle is worse off now than when I started. Yes, LR is a piece of shit. And yes, I knew it would be expensive. But I really feel like I'm being taken for a ride here, and not against fighting for what is fair.

    Are there any legalities which say parts on your car must remain in the same operating condition as they came in?

    Thanks for your thoughts, gentlemen.
    Obviously I don't know the specifics. But everything does line up in logical sequence. So you drove around with a bad alternator and killed your battery(or the battery was misdiagnosed as a bad alternator to begin with). As with any non domestic vehicle, the battery just has to have a little bit wonky voltage to throw the whole computer system into a hissy fit. One could assume that you or the shop did a ton of cranking on the vehicle trying to get it to start. Which overheats the starter eventually and ruins it. So it gets towed to LR where they immediately recommend a battery, only to find out the starter is broken as soon as they get proper voltages back and codes cleared.

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    Ok - I can see I wasn't explicit enough. Good questions.

    1) There were a couple minor deep codes for, like, a speaker and other unrelated things prior. I scan it regularly due to a lean code im trying to track down. The codes that came up after the clear at the shop were related to connection to tranny ecu, transfer case ecu, lcd screen, and something else. I did a hard reset but they persist.
    2) I know the alternator was on its way out because I believe I tracked a loud rev whine to it, while it normally maintained a decent voltage, it did fluctuate occasionally and went as high as 15.2 Plus when I brought it in to get the lean code checked, they told me I needed one. If I fried the battery, I accept that as my own fault. But it didn't give me grief until I touched the first shop. They couldn't test it as LR as it wouldn't even register.
    3) Sorry for the lack of clarity. The starter engaged the flywheel, but it was like there was no fuel. (Subsequently dispelled by the LR tech who tested the pressure as decent). Basically, it was fine, would only engage the flywheel at the first shop, and only briefly engaged at LR before it bit the dust.

    I guess it's difficult to say too much at this point until I figure out what the original root cause for the no start is. Once we get the new starter in, that'll be the next step. Hopefully nothing else decides to conveniently kick the bucket in the hands of other people.

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    I am absolutely willing to bet there is a very teenie ground somewhere that did not get put back on.

    Any canbus style car would have this freakout if you were missing a ground that had anything to do with ecm controlled electronics.
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    If I had known you guys would end up being such bitches, I would’ve opened the parenting forum.

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    Actually, funny you should say that. As it turns out, when the 1st shop was installing the alternator, he also broke a ground that fan from the frame to the engine mount. He relocated it, and it started. He figured if it was strong enough to start, it must be strong enough to run ecus, which made some sense. But the LR tech says he mounted it back where it belongs. So guess I'm paying for both re-mounts of the ground.

    Now, the first tech said he couldn't get it to do anything at all until he relocated the ground. Which means he did indeed try running with a bad ground. Which would explain the two dozen codes I saw when I first arrived and scanned the vehicle. But after the clear and the new ground, those should have all been cleared. The hard reset I performed (+/- leads together for an hour) just before I got it towed should also have cleared out any remaining crap. With that said, I know LR is finicky and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that his attempt without a proper ground may have hung up an ecu that needs coaxing to free up. And I know that if an ecu hangs, it can also hang the rest of the bus network.

    Just spitballing here. When it comes to standard OBD shit, I'm pretty good at fixing my own stuff. But all this computerized crap that requires specialized equipment makes ownership not exactly the treat I was hoping for. It doesn't help that I bought an 06, which was the transition year away from BMW equipment so it's like a 1/2 and 1/2 deal with limited documentation.

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    Sounds like LR is slowly figuring it out, but it really does sound like it was a sequence of one thing killing another. I wonder if the first shop tried cranking for a while before realizing that the ground was broken before relocating it thus overheating the starter and killing the dying battery

    Side note; a few of my friends for a long time wanted a RR and other British cars, as their car guy friend I tried to steer them away as best as I could. For the one that did buy it I told them to lose my number. I wont even hook up my scan tool to it. Straight to dealer or specialist.

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    Got to pay to play. If a $2k bill scares you, might need to reassess your choice of beater.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by killramos View Post
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    Got to pay to play. If a $2k bill scares you, might need to reassess your choice of beater.
    It isn't the 2k that upsets me much; I make decent coin and can afford it. Fuck, I got a hole in the sidewall of my almost-new Jag tires this same week. $400 later, whatever. I mean, it sucks losing that for nothing but parts are expensive for LR's, and I knew that going in. I also knew they had more problems than most.

    What is actually stressing me out is how multiple parts that worked perfectly fine started failing the moment I bring it to a shop. It isn't technically about the money as much as it is trying to figure out if a) They actually did fry things due to their incompetence and b) What recourse I legally have I can prove that to be the case.

    If the battery is truly dead (I suspect the 1st shop just ran it down) then I will happily absorb that, and consider it my own fault. As for the starter, I suppose there is a one in 10,000 chance it was "just it's time" during the 2-3 starts it has encountered since being in for service, but let's face it - that's exceptionally unlikely. Hence, my initial question as to what the legalities might be when you bring something into a shop, and other things stop working while in their possession.

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    I guarantee you waived all liability when you handed over the keys.
    Originally posted by Thales of Miletus

    If you think I have been trying to present myself as intellectually superior, then you truly are a dimwit.
    Originally posted by Toma
    fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yolobimmer View Post
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    guessing who I might be, psychologizing me with your non existent degree.

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    Serious question, is it your expectation that anything that may have been misdiagnosed or fails and needs replacing while in the hands of the mechanic should be their responsibility to fix at no cost?
    I like neat cars.

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    What a nightmare. A trusted mechanic is everything!
    Conversations like this can be intense.

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    I remember years ago when I worked in car audio we’d get the same guys coming in for a quote every 6 months

    After 3 visits I’d ask why they’re wasting my time with ANOTHER quote

    It’s because any money earmarked for upgrades went to repairs

    Sell the fkn pile of garbage and move on

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    Quote Originally Posted by 90_Shelby View Post
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    Serious question, is it your expectation that anything that may have been misdiagnosed or fails and needs replacing while in the hands of the mechanic should be their responsibility to fix at no cost?
    Valid question, and I guess this is where I'm asking for advice. What's the realistic moral and legal ground here?

    If I bring in a vehicle for a windshield repair and the rear taillight stops working, that's my issue. Let's consider that "0" on the plausibility scale. Clearly unrelated.
    If I bring it in to fix the radio and my carbon fiber bezel is cracked on return, I would consider it their issue. Let's consider this "10" on the plausibility scale, given the proximity.
    So on the 10 scale, who's responsibility should it be to fix the bezel? The tech would say it was stuck or weak and they did nothing wrong. I would argue my vehicle came in intact, and it should come out the same way. I would demand a replacement.

    In my cases:
    What is the plausibility that shop #1 ran the battery down and provided poor service? Given no prior issues and the timing, I'd say a solid 8 or 9. Does that make them liable for anything? Probably not. This is the third time I'll mention that I can accept the battery - even though I'm willing to bet it's just fine if I jump it and then charge it. Their poor work cost me half a grand. I'll move on. They already cost me some $1500 in other unnecessary repairs, so this is nothing new.
    What is the plausibility that LR did something wrong to fry my starter? The 5000 cranks prior to that were flawless. He was working in the vicinity physically, and on the starting circuit. I don't really know as I'm not a tech, but all indications point to him doing something he should not have done.

    I mean, at what point DOES the shop have to take responsibility - either legally or morally? Can you bring it in for a new battery and they can return it with every electronic system destroyed? If the answer to that is "no, of course not", then at what point does responsibility apply? 3 ecus? 2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bytem3 View Post
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    Sell the fkn pile of garbage and move on
    Have you heard of the Sunk Cost Fallacy? Yeah. That's what I'm experiencing. If I can just get ______ working right, I can drive it without worry. Then all the money paid off. Fallacy indeed.

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    sig deleted by moderator, because they are useless

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    Quote Originally Posted by finboy View Post
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    You know, that would absolutely work for me. Minus the running boards. I didn't exactly seek out a Rover. But I was tired of so many Grand Cherokees, and needed something that had good towing, could offroad, and I like my power. Pretty limited selection there at what I consider to be an appropriate price for a beater. 50k isn't it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kloubek View Post
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    Valid question, and I guess this is where I'm asking for advice. What's the realistic moral and legal ground here?

    If I bring in a vehicle for a windshield repair and the rear taillight stops working, that's my issue. Let's consider that "0" on the plausibility scale. Clearly unrelated.
    If I bring it in to fix the radio and my carbon fiber bezel is cracked on return, I would consider it their issue. Let's consider this "10" on the plausibility scale, given the proximity.
    So on the 10 scale, who's responsibility should it be to fix the bezel? The tech would say it was stuck or weak and they did nothing wrong. I would argue my vehicle came in intact, and it should come out the same way. I would demand a replacement.

    In my cases:
    What is the plausibility that shop #1 ran the battery down and provided poor service? Given no prior issues and the timing, I'd say a solid 8 or 9. Does that make them liable for anything? Probably not. This is the third time I'll mention that I can accept the battery - even though I'm willing to bet it's just fine if I jump it and then charge it. Their poor work cost me half a grand. I'll move on. They already cost me some $1500 in other unnecessary repairs, so this is nothing new.
    What is the plausibility that LR did something wrong to fry my starter? The 5000 cranks prior to that were flawless. He was working in the vicinity physically, and on the starting circuit. I don't really know as I'm not a tech, but all indications point to him doing something he should not have done.

    I mean, at what point DOES the shop have to take responsibility - either legally or morally? Can you bring it in for a new battery and they can return it with every electronic system destroyed? If the answer to that is "no, of course not", then at what point does responsibility apply? 3 ecus? 2?


    Have you heard of the Sunk Cost Fallacy? Yeah. That's what I'm experiencing. If I can just get ______ working right, I can drive it without worry. Then all the money paid off. Fallacy indeed.
    Has happened to me. Bring car in for winter tires mount and balance at kal tire. Tech drives it into the parking block and cracks front bumper. Tire shop paid for bumper repairs and no charge for tire install. But I caught them in the act lol would it have been different if I didn’t see them do it?

    Good luck man. Hope things work out for you but you seem like a baller so as a reminder, any problem that money can solve is no problem at all (but it still hurts lol)
    Conversations like this can be intense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kloubek View Post
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    Valid question, and I guess this is where I'm asking for advice. What's the realistic moral and legal ground here?

    If I bring in a vehicle for a windshield repair and the rear taillight stops working, that's my issue. Let's consider that "0" on the plausibility scale. Clearly unrelated.
    If I bring it in to fix the radio and my carbon fiber bezel is cracked on return, I would consider it their issue. Let's consider this "10" on the plausibility scale, given the proximity.
    So on the 10 scale, who's responsibility should it be to fix the bezel? The tech would say it was stuck or weak and they did nothing wrong. I would argue my vehicle came in intact, and it should come out the same way. I would demand a replacement.

    In my cases:
    What is the plausibility that shop #1 ran the battery down and provided poor service? Given no prior issues and the timing, I'd say a solid 8 or 9. Does that make them liable for anything? Probably not. This is the third time I'll mention that I can accept the battery - even though I'm willing to bet it's just fine if I jump it and then charge it. Their poor work cost me half a grand. I'll move on. They already cost me some $1500 in other unnecessary repairs, so this is nothing new.
    What is the plausibility that LR did something wrong to fry my starter? The 5000 cranks prior to that were flawless. He was working in the vicinity physically, and on the starting circuit. I don't really know as I'm not a tech, but all indications point to him doing something he should not have done.

    I mean, at what point DOES the shop have to take responsibility - either legally or morally? Can you bring it in for a new battery and they can return it with every electronic system destroyed? If the answer to that is "no, of course not", then at what point does responsibility apply? 3 ecus? 2?


    Have you heard of the Sunk Cost Fallacy? Yeah. That's what I'm experiencing. If I can just get ______ working right, I can drive it without worry. Then all the money paid off. Fallacy indeed.
    In your first post you stated, “So, everyone advised I don't buy a Rover as my beater vehicle. They were right.” Now you’re having major and expensive issues with a vehicle that is known to have major and expensive issues but you’re trying to point the blame at the shop and not at the fact that you bought a vehicle that is known for high frequency and expensive repairs.

    Accept defeat, sell the pile and move on.
    I like neat cars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max_boost View Post
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    Good luck man. Hope things work out for you but you seem like a baller
    Thanks. Glad you had a solid resolution on that. And no, I'm no baller. But not hurting either.

    Quote Originally Posted by 90_Shelby View Post
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    Now you’re having major and expensive issues with a vehicle that is known to have major and expensive issues...
    So I took the time to write you a nice, detailed example of what my expectations are from a shop, but giving you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't just trying to be a dick. Oops.

    In short, my expectation is that they don't fuck up my vehicle parts while it's in their hands. To which you ignore the entire post (including prior posts where I stated basically the same thing) and instead just try to further crush a guy for getting a not tiny bill that he wouldn't have had if he never brought his vehicle in. Instead, you focus on the fact I bought a crappy vehicle brand. Guess what? Tesla, BMW, Chrysler, Mini, Jeep, Alfa, Mitsubishi, Maserati, Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren, GMC are all shitty too and most expensive to repair. Yet half the world owns them.

    Your self-righteousness is showing, and your "advice" is presumably to just take poor worksmanship up the ass and whatever happens happens. Fucking brilliant.

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