Shops f'n up my Rover

[ExtraSlow]

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Go for a joy ride when baseball-sized hail is hitting central AB.

Its harder than it sounds to do that deliberately.

[tonytiger55]

[QUOTE=Kloubek;5072050]Valid question, and I guess this is where I'm asking for advice. What's the realistic moral and legal ground here? /QUOTE]

I think part of the issue is that you have bought a vehicle that is not reliable (Yes I get it you know that but hear me out). If you brought in a Toyota/Honda in and had the same issues. Then there is some good questions to be asked. I think you would have more of a stronger argument for this.

When the vehicle itself is junk. These situations go hand in hand unfortunatley.
My nepew had a LR, after 3-4 years things went to crap. The mechanical experience was just like yours. Fix one thing and another happens that leads to another.

Its like buying good tasting food from a dodgy resturant and then complaining you got the shits. Or puting your dick in crazy (yes the sex is very good) and then complaining she keyed your car and wont stop stalking you. Its all part and parcel of the experience. Maturity is understanding these things are intertwined.

The same applies here. Legally and morally the the argument is weaker or non existent because its a LR.

[DonJuan]

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Go for a joy ride when baseball-sized hail is hitting central AB.

1. once over with a ball peen hammer,

2. call insurance company... "I was there"

3. PROFIT

[DonJuan]

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...
Its like buying good tasting food from a dodgy resturant and then complaining you got the shits. Or puting your dick in crazy (yes the sex is very good) and then complaining she keyed your car and wont stop stalking you. Its all part and parcel of the experience. Maturity is understanding these things are intertwined.

Effectively a LR/RR is the vehicle equivalent of Glenn Close from Fatal Attraction.

[Kloubek]

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YouÂ’re missing the point. ItÂ’s not that people donÂ’t care; itÂ’s just that itÂ’s impossible to definitively say whether or not the part on an old car broke as a result of the shop or not, thus the shop canÂ’t be held responsible for something they may or may not have done.

No, I get the point. It's hard to prove. If it was easy, I probably wouldn't have posted the thread in the first place since I'm one to stand up for what's right, *especially* when it involves my hard-earned money, and my decision would have already been made up. The fact that it is not clear what occurred, yet ridiculously suspicious considering it was working fine until the tech started touching the circuit. I mean, in any given situation where someone did something wrong they should be held responsible for, there are either expectations of responsibility set, or it goes to court where a judge decides, based on the evidence. Without a signed confession, it's up to a person or an entity to take all the facts into consideration and then make a determination based on plausibility.

However, it seems no allocation has been made in our society for situations like this, unless I truly wish to take them to small claims which I will not do. Apparently, people bring their vehicles in and simply pay whatever bill they receive willingly. Maybe my beef isn't as much with the shop as it is the system?

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Would you be able to post the 1st shops work order/receipt/invoice? (Censor private info of course) @Kloubek

Well I can when I get my vehicle back because it's in there. But I can also tell you if you're willing to take my word for it. It simply states two parts:
Alternator replacement (Customer supplied): 2 hrs.
Ground cable replacement: 1hr.
Total: $420+gst.

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$3k on the starting/charging/batt system does suck, BUT, it also doesn't suck because at least in -40C winter you will be good to go cranking ur brand new starter and big ass battery and not worried about getting stranded PLUS you have heated seats and a heated fucken front windshield while doing it AND once you get going, if you hit a pot hole your air suspension just absorbs the bump instead of transferring it into ur butthole PLUS you get to look down from your leather wrapped cocoon on shitmobiles like a toyota CHR that Enterprise tries to tell me is an SUV which it clearly is not AND you save the environment super fast with your gas v8 AND gas lid is on the right side so you can just tell ur wife to fill the gas while you plug into obdII and clear the christmas tree of codes #brightside

This is awesome. You're right, and I love the positive attitude. Thanks for the levity.

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Go for a joy ride when baseball-sized hail is hitting central AB.

At this point, that seems tempting if it wasn't fraudulent. But really, once this is solved and the lean code fixed (which I also asked LR to do), the vehicle will be fully operational and in great shape. As was pointed out, many are not, so I think I could still get a pretty healthy sale if that's the route I take.

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The same applies here. Legally and morally the the argument is weaker or non existent because its a LR.

It is? Yes, these vehicles fail more than many others; everyone knows that. But my issue isn't with the failure rate or part cost, which I knew about going into this. It sucks, but that's Rover Life. My issue was the timing of the failure, and the details surrounding it. Like I said in a prior post, half the lux brands out there are known for unreliability. I guarantee you half the guys making negative comments in this thread own one of these brands, but ignore that fact when making their keyboard-warrior comments. Just because a vehicle is known to be unreliable does not negate a shop's moral responsibility to ensure they don't damage a customer's vehicle while it's in their possession. That's the *only* element I'm complaining about, since I firmly believe that after the thousands of cranks that starter went through, it decides to die the exact same moment the circuit was touched my the tech is just too much of a coincidence to ignore.

But, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, there's really nothing I can do to prove it, nor receive compensation. It is what it is.

[ExtraSlow]

You are right, mechanics have consumers over a barrel because things like this are impossible to prove and if a shop wanted to be a bad actor it's nearly impossible to stop them.

That's bad. I don't have a solution. It's really hard to say if that's what happened here.

[DonJuan]

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You are right, mechanics have consumers over a barrel because things like this are impossible to prove and if a shop wanted to be a bad actor it's nearly impossible to stop them.

That's bad. I don't have a solution. It's really hard to say if that's what happened here.

I think his only leg to stand on is the first shop breaking the ground and moving it to another location. If he could get the LR tech to testify that moving the ground to the new spot caused the damage to the electrical system it could work?

Throw in some conductivity differences between the new location vs OEM location and maybe a judge sides with him?

[CLiVE]

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As i've said, the cost of parts I can accept. But I still feel the shop should be responsible for any damage they caused through negligence or inability. IF that's what actually happened, of course..

Should...yes, but I've had no luck in the past. Once had a shop install a battery backwards (neg to positive) - (in a lazy moment figured I would let them install as no one could screw that up). They fried the alternator, and after a back and forth at most they would agree to eat the labor costs, and give me a $50 gift card....but I was on the hook for the new alternator. I ordered it elsewhere for less, and installed myself.

[Flexray]

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However, it seems no allocation has been made in our society for situations like this, unless I truly wish to take them to small claims which I will not do. Apparently, people bring their vehicles in and simply pay whatever bill they receive willingly. Maybe my beef isn't as much with the shop as it is the system?

I like your statement about the system. It's just not the two shops that you have gone to, almost all shops are like this. I think you have every right to be pissed off. Automotive technology has been outpacing technician learning for many years now and this is the result of it. Shops are all about numbers, they have to be or they will go out of business. Technicians have to produce to pay the bills and keep the company afloat, but this leaves no room for a technician to learn and understand what he is doing. Learning gets pushed aside, while you are trying to repair a rolling supercomputer. It is pushing technicians out of the trade and closing shops that cannot keep up with technology and tooling.

I think your car got messed up from technician incompetence. I'm willing to bet the battery-positive charge cable got grounded out during the alternator replacement and destroyed a module on the powertrain network. If this network is offline it is going to block an engine start. So the engine got cranked and cranked until the starter motor and battery died. Once the failed module has been found, there will most likely be a big-ass burn mark on one of the circuit boards from the short to ground. Whatever module has been burnt, it's going to be in the thousands to replace. Good thing you already have it at the dealer because they are one of the only places that will be able to program that new computer. The crappy thing is most dealer techs have basically zero diagnostic ability and are not used to seeing this kind of failure, it may take many hours for them to figure this out. Once it is all sorted, I would take the first shop to court if they don't foot the bill.

[TomcoPDR]

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Well I can when I get my vehicle back because it's in there. But I can also tell you if you're willing to take my word for it. It simply states two parts:
Alternator replacement (Customer supplied): 2 hrs.
Ground cable replacement: 1hr.
Total: $420+gst.

1000% will take you at face value, it's just Beyond. (lol, I'm ptsd getting railed on in a past thread I need to post legal/land title ownership style of proof just cause I worded something... over it now, no beef, but I'm always cautious of it)

I was just asking, trying to see if there's a legal angle from what the 1st shop did. As the 1st-2nd reply mentioned, you did your own diagnose, and your instructions were just to install/labour on customer supplied part (plus the ground cable rusted/broke replaced?). I think they did the work (install customer supplied alternator)

In my opinion (what you're asking, I may be completely wrong): it's not a case of --customer brings vehicle in, customer complain whining noise and engine check light(s) low charge light on, tech #5 diagnosed (we suggest this, this, that), advised customer new alternator, software update, etc. etc. Customer agreed work to start, approved only alternator change. Tech Removed+ Replaced RR factory alternator, ground cable broken needed replace, tech restarted vehicle, vehicle fail start, engine lights remains on, we have no clue what to do next, customer pulled vehicle out towed to dealer, etc.


And yes, I've had this experience too. When Shawnee Station first got built, (1999-2001?) brand new OK tire franchise had oil change special $15-19. Drove perfectly fine when it was brought in, when they had me grab the car directly from office to work bay, the starter grinded (turns, but wouldn't engage/slips). The lube tech saw it, but lucky for them it started and I left. Did it the entire weekend. Costed a new starter (else where). Not saying it's accepted/norm/acceptable; you're asking for liability opinions, I'd think pretty hard to prove fault. (mentioned in thread by most: In methods of either trolling, being a bit blunt and lost in communication how it's received, or true heartedly trying to tell ya "sucks, we all been there")


Hopefully dealer can get it up and running and you can post in Everyday cars

[Kloubek]

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I think your car got messed up from technician incompetence. I'm willing to bet the battery-positive charge cable got grounded out during the alternator replacement and destroyed a module on the powertrain network. If this network is offline it is going to block an engine start. So the engine got cranked and cranked until the starter motor and battery died. Once the failed module has been found, there will most likely be a big-ass burn mark on one of the circuit boards from the short to ground. Whatever module has been burnt, it's going to be in the thousands to replace. Good thing you already have it at the dealer because they are one of the only places that will be able to program that new computer. The crappy thing is most dealer techs have basically zero diagnostic ability and are not used to seeing this kind of failure, it may take many hours for them to figure this out.

This is what I suspected from the start. I hope you're wrong - but at this point it's the most logical opinion.

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I was just asking, trying to see if there's a legal angle from what the 1st shop did. As the 1st-2nd reply mentioned, you did your own diagnose, and your instructions were just to install/labour on customer supplied part (plus the ground cable rusted/broke replaced?). I think they did the work (install customer supplied alternator)

Yes, your assessment is completely correct. They did the ground cable work without my permission, but he didn't really have an option as he had ripped it out of the mount. Your starter motor situation sucks, but even with that I would consider it unrelated since what are the chances that the tech actually messed with the part or circuitry while doing an oil change? Not likely. If that was me, I too wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't even consider ripping the shop for that.

So, at the risk of stirring the locals again, I will provide an update.

It's been on the hoist at LR the entire week. In the end, the tech at LR came up at a loss to explain after extensively testing everything he could think of. The new battery didn't help anything. The new starter did nothing. Relocating the ground back to the original location did nothing. Everything he tested is operating as it should, and given the volume of labour I've approved, I'm guessing that's a lot of systems.

Now at a loss, they are in touch with their engineer support in the UK, and have asked for another day of diagnostic time. I agree it's looking increasingly like an ECU got fried, in my opinion, armed with limited knowledge. And if that's the case, combined with the extra labour, I'm probably looking at about at least $6,000-$8,000 now. But luckily, it's all acceptable because I bought a vehicle with a slightly lower reliability rate than most other cars.

[brucebanner]

Definitely baller...
$8K bill for your "beater"

All jokes aside, hopefully that resolves the issue(s) and nothing pops up shortly there after.

[max_boost]

It’s a shitty situation man. Sometimes we just have to take a L and move on. But at this point it would be good for closure if you can find out exactly what happened even tho there’s no recourse.

[danno]

this is one of the reasons i stay with the vw/audi brands, tunedub. i've never had any expensive repairs but the ones that i have had i've only had positive experiences. i remember a time where they thought a certain part would fix the problem but it didn't so they took it off and didn't charge me, another i needed a new high pressure fuel pump, george suggested i try and warranty to fix it, (i was tuned) so i got george to fix it. Just the suggestion to go to the dealer for warranty meant alot to me.

good luck with your issues, find a solid mechanic and stick with them.

[rage2]

Do you even know if the battery and starter is faulty or is are you trusting the tech who’s just replacing parts based on codes? My stubborn dad continues to pour money into his mini, one of the most unreliable cars out there, and one of the mechanics was a follow the book code chaser and cost him a bunch of replacement parts for no reason.

I know you don’t want to hear it, and it’s been said many times, but owning something like this, it’s part of the game. They have a reputation for a reason, not just reliability standpoint, but difficult to figure out what’s actually wrong. I hate watching my dad pour money he barely has into the car cuz he likes it. It’s a never ending game and not worth the stress.

[Kloubek]

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Do you even know if the battery and starter is faulty or is are you trusting the tech who’s just replacing parts based on codes?

If my desire was to throw parts at it, I'd do it myself. I am paying premium labor because I thought the techs more knowledgeable than myself had tools, experience and practical knowledge more than my own.

Is he replacing based on codes? Maybe. You'd have to ask him.

Funny how we all rag on LR, and then tout the "quality" of Audi and many other brands that are also known for unreliability... though they are just slightly better at best. I can appreciate tracking down a problems gets more challenging with a complex car, yet most cars these days are pretty damn complex. It's like saying we should all drive an old Camry or willingly accept whatever happens, even if the techs are fucking up. Sorry, that philosophy doesn't naturally fly with me. (Clearly).

[bjstare]

I challenge you to find a single post on this forum that praises the reliability of an Audi (The post above is a positive reflection on having a solid Indy you can trust, not saying Audis are great)

[danno]

i think are euro cars tend to have expensive maintance, some are worse like RR/LR that's probably why they are cheap to get second hand. The b7 audi s4 is terrible to deal with, but the b7 RS4 is not ( that's what i have had 2 of).
i was suggesting as above mentioned to find someone you trust to work on it first instead of jumping around shops. if it's your beater you have 2 cars so drive the other while you figure it out.

[rage2]

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Funny how we all rag on LR, and then tout the "quality" of Audi and many other brands that are also known for unreliability... though they are just slightly better at best. I can appreciate tracking down a problems gets more challenging with a complex car, yet most cars these days are pretty damn complex. It's like saying we should all drive an old Camry or willingly accept whatever happens, even if the techs are fucking up. Sorry, that philosophy doesn't naturally fly with me. (Clearly).

All cars are a pain. Whoever is touting the quality of an old Audi is lying to themselves like you’re doing lol. I’ve been thru maintaining old Porsches and BMWs, lucky to have the money to throw at them but hated the downtime when shit goes south. There were times when my 944 and my M3 were out of commission for over a year while shoveling money at problems to get them back on the road. Chasing down SMG issues is probably as painful as electrical issues in your LR. Eventually just feels like there’s no end in sight. You don’t agree with the philosophy, but really you gotta pay to play, in both time and money.

Learnt my lesson, hence all my cars are under warranty. TCO might be more, but worth every dollar for the lack of stress. YMMV.

[killramos]

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All cars are a pain. Whoever is touting the quality of an old Audi is lying to themselves like you’re doing lol. I’ve been thru maintaining old Porsches and BMWs, lucky to have the money to throw at them but hated the downtime when shit goes south. There were times when my 944 and my M3 were out of commission for over a year while shoveling money at problems to get them back on the road. Chasing down SMG issues is probably as painful as electrical issues in your LR. Eventually just feels like there’s no end in sight. You don’t agree with the philosophy, but really you gotta pay to play, in both time and money.

Learnt my lesson, hence all my cars are under warranty. TCO might be more, but worth every dollar for the lack of stress. YMMV.

So I should buy a new Land Rover?