Norway more EV than Gasoline

[davidI]

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Not to derail the thread. I'm curious, what was the food like there? What did you eat?

At some point I'll start a thread about it. It's likely I'll earn a small ownership % by spending 4+ months there again in 2025.

We had a nice kitchen but the nearest supermarket was 30 minutes away and the good supermarkets were an hour - expensive given 2€/L fuel and fact we had an automatic truck (VW Amarok). I made fresh bread every other day so we ate a lot of sandwiches and such. Everything is freaking expensive up there but as we run fishing tours we'd sometimes have fish. When I go back next year, I plan to fill the freezer with fish and eat a lot more of it and also take up some protein powder and vitamins as my diet was super carb heavy.

To bring things back on topic, some Dutch assholes with a Tesla plugged drove around back and plugged into the hotel's AC without asking. Electricity theft is going to become a huge problem in the future.

[heavyD]

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Families with two vehicles, who live in a city, should find the swap to BEV pretty flawless. The economics of it are a whole other thing though.

One issue right now is that we have been conditioned to upgrade into new models every 3-5 years (I'm never surprised by how many people I see on vehicle forums that trade up to the same vehicle simply for a mid cycle refresh) and poor EV resale value doesn't support the habit of changing vehicles in <5 year intervals.

[riander5]

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100% guilty as charged in not doing any research whatsoever until I was actually in the BEV for the week. I did A LOT of research while sitting waiting for it to charge at various public charging stations though. I was in the Hummer EV for the week, not a lightening, the lightening is hot garbage imo. I thought the Hummev looked cool and could possibly be a replacement for my truck that needs replacing, it was also really good and fun to drive. I would buy one as a replacement for my current PHEV but I would definitely install a L2 charger at home first. It is no where near capable of being an ICE towing replacement, which is fair.

Yeah this brings up a great point, is that unless you have at home charging (or free supercharger usage like people in the states used to (still?) have) an EV does not make sense. You need to be able to do the vast majority of charging at home.

In North America this shouldnt be a huge issue, but I believe in Europe where population density is much greater this is becoming a real issue. Nothing that can't be solved but worth mentioning.

[Xtrema]

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One issue right now is that we have been conditioned to upgrade into new models every 3-5 years (I'm never surprised by how many people I see on vehicle forums that trade up to the same vehicle simply for a mid cycle refresh) and poor EV resale value doesn't support the habit of changing vehicles in <5 year intervals.

I think the BEV depreciation curve is over blown. I would say Model 3 and Y are right priced and depreciation on those are not that bad. The problem with depreciation is most BEVs are priced in the premium to luxury segment. Depreciation is always bad for those segments regardless of ICE or BEV.

There still isn't a RAV4 of BEV. Model Y comes close but still $10K too much without rebates. Even then Tesla sold more Y than Honda CR-V and only a bit less RAV4.

[ZenOps]

The holy grail 100 mpg is *almost* doable with hybrid. Mind you, if you make a car entirely with carbon fiber and someone figures out Quantum Dot solar panels, an unlimited range car should be doable too.

But what would we need oil for then?

Its worth noting that the 100% tariff on EV seems to apply to E scooters as well from what the manufacturers are saying. Realistically if Calgary didn't have potholes (lol), or excessive gravelling, the riding season for an escooter is starting to hit 7+ months (Mid March to Oct?)

[davidI]

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In North America this shouldnt be a huge issue, but I believe in Europe where population density is much greater this is becoming a real issue. Nothing that can't be solved but worth mentioning.

European politicians love to spend money on infrastructure (corruption €€€€€€€€€)

One benefit here is standard voltage is 240v so existing infrastructure will already work a lot better. Most roads have already been ripped up many times recently to install new stuff (e.g. fiber optic internet) so running additional supply lines doesn't seem too difficult in most place since they can just pull new cables through where needed.

Where I'm living they're currently ripping up streets to install giant hot water pipes that will be fed from a biomass plant to feed 15 public buildings and 1600 houses (i.e. they'll receive hot water from the biomass plant rather than the gas/diesel boilers they currently have).

They're budgeting a quarter billion for the entire decade-long project but my guess is that it will cost around a billion CAD by the time it's all said and done.

Government will have built more than 200 kilometres of heat network pipes in the city, with an investment of over 200 million euros, with which the new energy infrastructure will be able to supply 720,000 MWh/year of thermal energy to a total of 60,000 homes and 250 tertiary buildings, and will represent a saving of CO2 emissions into the atmosphere of more than 165,000 tonnes per year.

[riander5]

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European politicians love to spend money on infrastructure (corruption €€€€€€€€€)

One benefit here is standard voltage is 240v so existing infrastructure will already work a lot better. Most roads have already been ripped up many times recently to install new stuff (e.g. fiber optic internet) so running additional supply lines doesn't seem too difficult in most place since they can just pull new cables through where needed.

Where I'm living they're currently ripping up streets to install giant hot water pipes that will be fed from a biomass plant to feed 15 public buildings and 1600 houses (i.e. they'll receive hot water from the biomass plant rather than the gas/diesel boilers they currently have).

They're budgeting a quarter billion for the entire decade-long project but my guess is that it will cost around a billion CAD by the time it's all said and done.

Interesting, I was reading a bunch about heat pump communities across the pond - but I was assuming air/air. Maybe yours is a water/air heat pump?

Heat pumps are definitely a good tool for decarbonization if you live in the right climate (not to hot, not to cold), but on a house to house basis. Never looked at full lifecycle of a community like you are describing.

[ExtraSlow]

Heat pumps in general are a nice option in many place around the world. Air-source is a little rough in the coldest winter like we get on the prairies, but many places don't see that kind of deep cold. Ground source can stretch that a bit, and is can be better for cooling if you have the right ground for it.

I like various energy sources. Good to have a few.

District heating is cool as well. Calgary has a project in the east village that does that.

[Xtrema]

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European politicians love to spend money on infrastructure (corruption €€€€€€€€€)

Canada too.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...ford-1.7333341

Doug Ford want a $100B tunnel under 401.

[davidI]

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Interesting, I was reading a bunch about heat pump communities across the pond - but I was assuming air/air. Maybe yours is a water/air heat pump?

Heat pumps are definitely a good tool for decarbonization if you live in the right climate (not to hot, not to cold), but on a house to house basis. Never looked at full lifecycle of a community like you are describing.

This isn't a heat pump. This will be a big biomass plant that heats water (or perhaps glycol or some other fluid) and flows it through a web of insulated piping all across the city to buildings - the hot water will be fed into the building's existing radiator systems which were historically either heating oil or nat gas.

Heat pumps are growing very popular here though and if I build a house it will definitely have one. They're best connected with radiant flooring - the biggest benefit, other than efficiency, being that you can both heat and cool your house with them. It's possible to connect them to old radiator systems too but often involves replacing / resizing the rads.

There are lots of good YouTube videos about it and we have a couple friends with newer builds that have them installed. One guy is an Electrician so he has solar panels and basically runs his whole house for a few Euros/month, if not profit.

[kJUMP]

I have to admit to enjoying my BEV experience so far with the X Plaid. I charge on a L2 at home for the most part, say a couple times a week, and try to do so during the day when we have excess solar production. I definitely don't miss going to a gas station. My in-laws are in Edmonton so when we make the trip, there's enough charge left and I'm not an economical driver. We drove to Penticton during that intense heat wave this summer. The range definitely took a hit with all the cooling systems active so we stopped in Golden and Vernon for 20 mins each to Supercharge. My daughters are young so they welcomed the breaks to grab a snack or pee. We didn't find it inconvenient to do so, more like part of the journey/adventure. The hotel had non-metered destination charging which was nice.

I'm no expert on emissions. Based on what I understand, the carbon penalty during production is higher with BEV vs ICE. From day 1 of ownership, the delta progressively narrows and then flips after years 2-3 in average use cases. Charging with renewable sources would further accelerate the curve. It seems that BEVs are more efficient, converting 2/3 of the energy unit into forward motion vs 1/3 for ICE.

For PHEVs, I think the purported 2-in-1 benefits are misjudged.

I would encourage anyone to give BEVs a hard look, it's a lot of fun. No doubt I like Tesla, but there are compelling options from other makers as well. Home charging capabilities are a must though otherwise you would probably be frustrated. I've also found the PlugShare app to be helpful.