Don't mess with China...

[Toma]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4322919.stm

[Kirbs17]

China is rather set in re-unifying with Taiwan. It will be interesting to see if the EU does indeed lift the embargo, as mentioned that some of the current members would like to.

[DEREK57]

Thats crazy. Would suck to be Tiawanese. Although I dont really see in what way China would threatened America, or the EU. The are dependent of America buying their products, and cant really touch them militarily...but I guess Chinas market is important to the Us too.

[Weapon_R]

Taiwan is a thorn that needs to be removed completely.

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
Taiwan is a thorn that needs to be removed completely.

What makes you say that? Dont they have a right to sovereignty?

[Xtrema]

Originally posted by DEREK57

What makes you say that? Dont they have a right to sovereignty?

Yes, as long as being sovereign as people want it. Not because U.S. or Japan push them to. These outside forces have been provoking it for many years because they know it can drag China down from being a strong economic force.

Taiwan isn't sovereign economically anyways. Few electronic manufacturing are left and most has moved to China. The 2 countries has been cooperating nicely and the U.S./Seperation prez has lost a bit of his power.

I believe 80% of Taiwanese want's status quo. Neither want unification or declared seperation because at this point in time, both will claim to be economic diasters. It should be a gradual unification process and outsider should shut up and let it be.

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by DEREK57

What makes you say that? Dont they have a right to sovereignty?

I believe in sovereignty, but not at the expense of someone else's territory.

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by Xtrema


Yes, as long as being sovereign as people want it. Not because U.S. or Japan push them to. These outside forces have been provoking it for many years because they know it can drag China down from being a strong economic force.

Taiwan isn't sovereign economically anyways. Few electronic manufacturing are left and most has moved to China. The 2 countries has been cooperating nicely and the U.S./Seperation prez has lost a bit of his power.

I believe 80% of Taiwanese want's status quo. Neither want unification or declared seperation because at this point in time, both will claim to be economic diasters. It should be a gradual unification process and outsider should shut up and let it be.

Well Ill admit I know nothing about Taiwan, but I dont see any reason besides economic reasons that they would want to join the capitalist dictatorship of China.

I agree that its not Americas place to push themselves in to there. But I also think that China should encourage free-trade without putting unification pressures on Taiwan.

[DEREK57]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


I believe in sovereignty, but not at the expense of someone else's territory.

I thought it was the Taiwanese land.... IMO the land belongs to those who occupy it, not those who have the militaristic ability to control it. (just like Iraq belongs to the Iraqi's, not the Americans.)

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by DEREK57



I thought it was the Taiwanese land.... IMO the land belongs to those who occupy it, not those who have the militaristic ability to control it. (just like Iraq belongs to the Iraqi's, not the Americans.)

At one time, the Nationalists (democrats) ruled the whole of China. They became corrupt, however, and attempted to purge other political parties, especially the Chinese Communist Party.

The Chinese Communist Party was able to move to Northern China, where they were able to garner millions of members and soldiers. Challenging the nationalists and greatly outnumbered, the Communists were nevertheless able to push the nationalists to present day Taiwan.

They stopped at Taiwan for various reasons, but mainly to concentrate efforts on the Korean war, as the American troops became dangerously close. They met the Americans head on, and pushed them into present day S. Korea.

Anyways, once the nationalists saw this break, they imposed a harsh rule on the people of present day Taiwan, and declared themselves autonomous. It was always Chinese land. Neither the people there, nor in the rest of China, approved of this politically motivated action.

In my opinion, Taiwan is Chinese territory.

[method]

america and japan needs to chiggity-check themselves.

[hjr]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


I believe in sovereignty, but not at the expense of someone else's territory.

so i guess that all of the middle east, all of central asia, all of north and south america, basically the whole world has no right to sovereignty. At some point, nearly every place on this planet was considered someone elses territory.

i know this sounds like a semantics argument, but its really not. At some point in the chinese empires history they took over tiawan, and thats why it is considered their territory. well for a long time the ottoman empire controlled most of the middle east and north africa. does this mean that turkey has the right to claim it back now?
for a very long time rome controlled much of europe, does this mean that italy has a claim to france or belgium?

[DEREK57]

I agree ^^, though somehow I can feel that if this argument survives it will slowly migrate its way to Isreal/Palestine.

[ehos]

Originally posted by DEREK57

What makes you say that? Dont they have a right to sovereignty?

It seems only USA and some of the other developed countries are allowed this luxury.

[Toma]

Sovereignty is a step backwards in social evolution.

Humans are naturally tribal...

we started as hunters in packs, then tribes, then villages, then towns, then cities, then provinces, then countries..... that is the natural progression, we really should be focussing on living together in increasingly bigger global communities...

The US does not want this of course, because any bigger community would threaten the US's position as "boss of the planet", and they purposely "divide and concour", through economic, political, undercover, war..... basically any way that they can to ensure their global influence remains strong.

The US gov't are EXPERTS and creating dissent, supporting nationals with bribes, covert money and training etc....

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by hjr

so i guess that all of the middle east, all of central asia, all of north and south america, basically the whole world has no right to sovereignty. At some point, nearly every place on this planet was considered someone elses territory.

i know this sounds like a semantics argument, but its really not. At some point in the chinese empires history they took over tiawan, and thats why it is considered their territory. well for a long time the ottoman empire controlled most of the middle east and north africa. does this mean that turkey has the right to claim it back now?
for a very long time rome controlled much of europe, does this mean that italy has a claim to france or belgium?

That's a pretty absurd example that you use. Conquest today is an illegal form of appropriating territory, whereas it was not seen so back in the Ottoman days.

Perhaps your argument would be better exemplified through the look of the Kurds in Iraq. To me, the Taiwanese government is much like the Kurdish people in Iraq. Do I agree with Saddams response to the Kurds? Not in the least. Do I agree that they deserve a homeland on Iraqi territory? Not in the least.

The Chinese were busy fighting in Korea, when the nationalists forced their rule on the people of present day Taiwan, drew a border line, and aligned themselves with the Americans to grant themselves some sort of security. I fail to see how you can defend the Taiwanese claims as being legitimate.

[Rav4Guy]

Originally posted by DEREK57



I thought it was the Taiwanese land.... IMO the land belongs to those who occupy it, not those who have the militaristic ability to control it. (just like Iraq belongs to the Iraqi's, not the Americans.)

Land is about who is able to control it. Technically... Canada is all Native land.. how come you don't see the Natives going around and fighting off the "Canadians", because they can't and aren't able to do anything about it

Taiwan belongs to China and the quarrel/fighting should stay between those two parties. If the US or any other country decides to stick their dirty paws in, i'm sure lots of chinese around the world will vocalize their anger.

As for the embargos against China... who the heck cares. Where is all the stuff made today anyways? CHINA! If you want to restrict their import/export, you're hurting your own economic stability.

China runs on a different political platform than most of the world. So therefore they do things different than "we" do. They want an anti-succession law. good for them. Keep all the troublemakers at bay.

I applaud China for all of their progress, especially not allowing unions to form. I hate unions with a passion and people who use them to profit off of.

[EVOI]

Originally posted by Weapon_R
I fail to see how you can defend the Taiwanese claims as being legitimate.

Why not?
Even though, most the history you mention were truth but i still think you missing some of the point.

In 1895, Taiwan was Japanese's colony but after Japanese lost in WWII in 1945, Taiwan was once belong to the China.

However, in that time, China was ruled by the Nationalists (democrats). Then, the civil war between the Nationalists and the Communists and the Nationalists lost and was push out of China and stay in Taiwan.

Yes, Nationalists lost the whole China to the Communists but they never lost Taiwan in the first place. then, how is possible that Taiwan is China's territory?

and here is something interesting for you to think about it, when China was rule by Nationalist, China's full name is "Republic of China" but when the Communists took over they change their name to "People's republic of China" and also they change the national flag. But, Taiwan has the original national flag and the original name, "Republic of China" Then. shouldn't Taiwan be the original China and communist China is the new China?

So, if you say that Taiwan is China's territory,then i can also say that China was originally belong to Taiwanese's government and I fail to see how you can defend the Communist China claims as being legitimate.

[hjr]

Originally posted by Weapon_R


That's a pretty absurd example that you use. Conquest today is an illegal form of appropriating territory, whereas it was not seen so back in the Ottoman days.

Perhaps your argument would be better exemplified through the look of the Kurds in Iraq. To me, the Taiwanese government is much like the Kurdish people in Iraq. Do I agree with Saddams response to the Kurds? Not in the least. Do I agree that they deserve a homeland on Iraqi territory? Not in the least.

The Chinese were busy fighting in Korea, when the nationalists forced their rule on the people of present day Taiwan, drew a border line, and aligned themselves with the Americans to grant themselves some sort of security. I fail to see how you can defend the Taiwanese claims as being legitimate.

i dont know man, most of the time when sovereignty is gained it is because the country took advantage of a situation that was limiting what they saw as their occupiers. I dont think that there is a concensus that taiwan illegally gained sovereignty. In fact i believe the majority view is that it is actually legal.
Anyways, Most of the time countries dont give up territory simply because they are feeling nice. Usually it is because of some other limiting factor that makes holding onto it inconvient, unnessisary, or unwanted, even if its only a temperary.

Europes territories across the globe took advantage of the dept and local problems that followed ww1 and ww2 to gain sovereingnty. Does this mean that Lebanon should be an french controlled territory again? It was given up when france had other problems to deal with, namely the german armies inside their country. By your reasoning, if france did want it back, the lebanese have no legitimate claim to sovereignty.

Im not saying that taiwan's claims are legitimate or not, what i am saying is that your reasoning does not justify china's position.

as a side not, i dont think the point about illegality is pretty very relivant. There is no world police, despite what the americans may think. There are american/western interests being enforced all the time, but there is definetely not an objective policing agency. Nothing is truly illegal if it cant be enforced. Granted there is a world court, but it is quite ineffective in this situation.


just thought of this: you said -

Originally posted by Weapon_R
The Chinese were busy fighting in Korea, when the nationalists forced their rule on the people of present day Taiwan, drew a border line, and aligned themselves with the Americans to grant themselves some sort of security.

thats like a china saying, "oh, i wasnt ready, i want a do-over. no fair you guys, come on."

[Weapon_R]

Originally posted by hjr

thats like a china saying, "oh, i wasnt ready, i want a do-over. no fair you guys, come on."

haha

Wasn't ready? I'm reasonably sure that China can, and will take back their territory.

Any Chinese people have input on this issue? Do you guys think that Taiwan has a legitimate right to exist?