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  1. #4241
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    Originally posted by mushi_mushi
    I think Brock and Shane are good HW but they are not top 5. The UFC hype machine wants you to believe a guy that is 5-1 is the best heavyweight in the world. Brock and Carwin each held titles and had some good wins, and thats why they were ranked above Cain and JDS who have better records/wins. I think this fight showed that both Brock and Carwin and very beatable. It also showed that if Brock doesnt have the size advantage he doesnt look as good as he does given a smaller opponent. I think that a guy of Carwins size was bound to gas although it looked like he didnt exert to much energy during the first round. If Carwin knew he was getting tired he should have just went for the submission himself. Either way this sets up some good fights in the UFC.
    I think it is fair to rank Brock as the #1 heavyweight in the world right now. He is the UFC heavyweight champion and he has earned it. I think that Cain will be a good fight, but once again the size of Brock will take over. Carwin was about as close as you are going to find in size to Lesnar, and as soon as Lesnar got on top it was all over. It will be the same with Cain and Dos Santos. Brock will stand up and bang, and if he gets clocked hard enough he will go for the takedown and ground and pound.

    I would say Carwin is a legit top 3 in the world right now. He could have easily beat Brock in this fight, and if he were to fight Cain or Junior, he would likely knock them out with his heavy hands. No way those guys could stand the beating that Lesnar took last night.

  2. #4242
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    Ubereem > All



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    According to Carwin, he didn't gas, he just locked up. I find this fairly plausible. If his conditioning had been that bad (gassed after going 100% for about 2 minutes, he'd have known that going in. Tough break.
    In light of that, I'd say Brock definitely looked worse than Carwin last night. He won't be champ for long.
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    i still believe that overeem and fedor can take on all the guys in the ufc without a doubt!

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    Originally posted by chathamf


    I think it is fair to rank Brock as the #1 heavyweight in the world right now. He is the UFC heavyweight champion and he has earned it. I think that Cain will be a good fight, but once again the size of Brock will take over. Carwin was about as close as you are going to find in size to Lesnar, and as soon as Lesnar got on top it was all over. It will be the same with Cain and Dos Santos. Brock will stand up and bang, and if he gets clocked hard enough he will go for the takedown and ground and pound.

    I would say Carwin is a legit top 3 in the world right now. He could have easily beat Brock in this fight, and if he were to fight Cain or Junior, he would likely knock them out with his heavy hands. No way those guys could stand the beating that Lesnar took last night.
    I respect your opinion, I just have a different way of looking at things. Take Brock for example, prior to Fedors loss most people had him as the number 2 HW. He had two decent wins against an aging Coture and Mir. JDS has wins over cro-cop (who's over the hill), Werdum (was out of shape) and Gonzaga. He has an 11-1 fight record. Cain also has an impressive record against tough competition. If anything I would put those guys higher than Brock. But Brock does have the belt. The guy did get a title shot first due to politics/ability to sell tickets rather than having to work for it like the other ufc heavyweights.

    I think either JDS or Cain will take out Brock very soon. These guys might be as big, or punch as hard as Carwin, but they wont gas and chances are they have a decent ground game.

    The fact of the matter is Brock won his fight and Fedor lost, this is what most people are going on and it makes sense. I dont wish to get into what if, or could have beens, but I just think if Fedor did come to the UFC (probably never going to happen) that he would win 3 matches against UFC's top 4 if not all of them. In MMA anything can happen, and that's exactly what happened this week with Fedors loss, and Brocks win coming back from a taking a pounding. I still think Fedor is the best MMA fighter on the planet and the best HW fighter of all time.

    Cant say too much about Overeem because the guy hasnt really faced top competition lately in MMA. Although his win over Rogers was impressive. We cant really compare the Overeem of old with Ubereem. I was looking forwad to seeing him fight Fedor, who knows what will happen one fight left in Fedor contract.

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    I mostly agree but would add that at this level, with several guys n the mix, absolute rankings are pretty difficult and irrelevant. Styles make fights.
    I think of the Cain, Carwin, Fedor, Lesnar, Overeem group, there's not one of them I'd say could reliably beat the others.
    For example: I think Fedor would beat Lesnar, I think lesnar would beat Overeem, and I think overeem would beat fedor.
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    Yea it is pretty much impossible to say who is the best heavyweight, or the best pound for pound guy. Doesn't really matter either I guess, all just based on opinion.

    I would rank the UFC heavyweights above people like Werdum, Overeem and Fedor because they actually do fight in the best fight league in the world against the best of the best. But I mean I would not at all be surprised to see Fedor come to the UFC and destroy everyone, he could easily do that, who knows. I don't think we will see him in the UFC because Dana wants nothing to do with him and I think in some way Fedor is sort of scared of the UFC.

    Now that he lost and he is not seen as this unbeatable force maybe he would consider coming over because he has nothing to lose.

    No matter what, this is making for some exciting MMA. I don't think the heavyweight division has ever looked this good, and I'm looking forward to whatever Dana throws at us next. I would like to see Cain Vs. Dos Santos for the #1 contendership. Not saying Cain doesn't deserve the title shot, but it's just a fight I'd really like to see.

    Maybe they should do Dos Santos Vs. Carwin and the winner of that fight get another crack at Brock (or Cain) later down the road.

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    Its already announced that dos santos is fighting roy nelson and cain is gonna fight brock. Fedor is good but he didnt evolve like the rest of mma only reason why he even looked somewhat good recently is because he fights bums. He should have sucked it up and came to ufc like the rest of pride. Overeem is decent but lets not forget chuck liddel easily ko'd him at lhw. Brock is a beast and last night just showed he has heart and can weather a storm. I dont see him losing for a very long time, to say brock is not number one is just plain hating. Hes strong as shit and his cardio is on another level. They almost need a super heavyweight division so dos santos and cain stand a chance.

    BTW is it just me or does chris leben fight like a zombie
    Last edited by scboss; 07-04-2010 at 09:35 PM.

  9. #4249
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    Originally posted by warcaster
    Its already announced that dos santos is fighting roy nelson and cain is gonna fight brock. Fedor is good but he didnt evolve like the rest of mma only reason why he even looked somewhat good recently is because he fights bums. He should have sucked it up and came to ufc like the rest of pride. Overeem is decent but lets not forget chuck liddel easily ko'd him at lhw. Brock is a beast and last night just showed he has heart and can weather a storm. I dont see him losing for a very long time, to say brock is not number one is just plain hating. Hes strong as shit and his cardio is on another level. They almost need a super heavyweight division so dos santos and cain stand a chance.

    BTW is it just me or does chris leben fight like a zombie
    I totally disagree regarding fedor, although I've always been a fan of his, I dont think im biased. Fedor has fought more top 10 heavyweights than anyone else at the moment. Arlovski, Tim, Rogers, Barnett (never materialized due to positive steroid test) Werdum were all top 10 guys. Fedor isnt in the ufc because hes scared, he simply wants other things besides fame and money, he doesnt care about those things. UFC is never going to co-promote and there will always be a champions clause. From the UFC perspective it doesnt make sense to pay tons of money for fedor because the guy isnt as marketable, he's doesnt sell the way the way brock does. The hardcore fans know who he is, the people that just watch tuf/ufc have no clue.

    People always talk about the new breed of heavyweights, I dont know what they are talking about. You want to talk about well rounded show me one HW who is better then fedor. World class sambo submissions skills, master of judo, good stand up, explosivness, cardio, heart etc. I dont see anyone with a more complete skill set.

    I think the things brock has been able to achieve in this sport are amazing considering his age when he chose to transition. He is very fast/athletic for a guy his size, and while I find him to be impressive I dont think he hold a candle to fedor, prime nog, prime co-cop. Overeem has evolved as a fighter recently but we really havnt seen what he is capable of in mma. I strongly doubt many fighters can compete in k1 at the highest levels and have the success that he has had. As for his fight with chuck liddel in pride, overeem almost knocked chuck out, then he gassed like he's been known to do and chuck ko'd him. I think he would do well against carwin/brock. He is solid standing and had good bjj, the only question marks I see are gas and heart which were overeems problems in the past.

    I think that Brock loses one of his upcoming title defenses to either cain or JDS. He's shown to be a good wrestler but thats it, there are plenty of guys with better standup and submissions. Im not a pride nuthugger, but I believe there are good fighters outside the ufc. I agree that its difficult to come up with a real top 10 when things change every few months. I would rate cain/jds higher than brock. Brock got the title shot first not because he was the best but because he was the most marketable.
    Last edited by mushi_mushi; 07-04-2010 at 10:14 PM.

  10. #4250
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    The thing with fedor is he sorta screwed himself. Sure he beat all the top ten guys just at the wrong times. He fighting all the guys now that cant cut it in the ufc. Arlovski, werdum, sylvia and rogers wouldnt even beat any of the top ufc heavyweights anymore. The guys in ufc heavyweight division are just way to powerful and if fedor came to ufc he could win fights but he would never be a champion at hw. Fedor didnt ruin his legacy tho M-1 global did. They wanted to milk his undefeated streak for everything it was worth and if fedor wanted to remain the best in the world he cannot remain with strikeforce period. As it stands he lost to werdum which was a bottom end ufc fighter and the list of other "top 10" guys have all been cut from the ufc previous to their fedor fights.

    Fedor is still one of the best but to be number one you gotta fight the best not a bunch of washed up guys. In all honesty strikeforce is a big joke, they are saying that they might give fedor a title shot then werdum gets winner even tho werdum beat fedor, remind you of something? "rogers vs overeem"

    The thing with brock is he is just getting started and he learning stuff fast, i think fedor had 99% chance of beating brock before but now its more like 50/50 and it is only gonna get worse.

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    Originally posted by mushi_mushi


    Fedor isnt in the ufc because hes scared, he simply wants other things besides fame and money, he doesnt care about those things. UFC is never going to co-promote and there will always be a champions clause. From the UFC perspective it doesnt make sense to pay tons of money for fedor because the guy isnt as marketable, he's doesnt sell the way the way brock does.

    Fedor is making a SHITLOAD of money from his Samba tournaments... money that UFC cant even compete with! Plus he's doing his M1 or Strikeforce or whatever he's doing now...

    Why would Fedor leave all that to come to the UFC and get paid diddly squat!?

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    How much is he making from those tourneys? Because IIRC dana offered fedor 30 mill for 6 fights.
    Originally posted by edde
    its called sarcasim you fucking idiot

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    The ufc was going to pay him huge money to fight lesnar. The problem was not, nor has it been, the money.
    The problem is finklestein. Dana isn't going to copromote with a completely useless, leacherous "promotion" (nor should he) and he's not going to sign on a non-exclusive or 1 fight deal (nor should he).
    Fedor isn't in the ufc because his management wants to use him as their meal ticket for their "promotion", not because the ufc wasn't willing to fairly compensate fedor.
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    Originally posted by TKRIS
    The ufc was going to pay him huge money to fight lesnar. The problem was not, nor has it been, the money.
    The problem is finklestein. Dana isn't going to copromote with a completely useless, leacherous "promotion" (nor should he) and he's not going to sign on a non-exclusive or 1 fight deal (nor should he).
    Fedor isn't in the ufc because his management wants to use him as their meal ticket for their "promotion", not because the ufc wasn't willing to fairly compensate fedor.
    I agree, and I also have to agree with uncle Dana when he calls strikeforce a second rate organization. They're considering giving Fedor a title shot as his last fight with them even though Werdum rightfully deserves it. I can see how Cokers hoping Fedor wins and resigns but come on, second time they'll give a guy a title shot after he just lost (rogers vs overeem)?

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    Fedor isnt making anything off of sambo tournaments, he does it because he enjoys it and want to be an ambassador for the sport and represent his country.

    There were reports that Dana offered Fedor 30 million 6 fight contract, but those reports were never substantiated and disputed by m1. Fighters have other ways of making money besides their fighting salaries. Fedor had a million dollar deal with tap-out making fedor shirts until the ufc squashed it. Money again is not the deciding factor, fedor came from a livelihood which is difficult for many to understand, he didnt even have enough money to feed his family. Now he has millions and still has a meek living, he trains in the middle of but fuck nowhere, and not some fancy high tech gym. Fedor owns part of m1 and makes his own business decisions.

    Arlovski and Werdum were not booted from the ufc, they left to pursue better pay/opportunities. Werdum did loose to JDS, but he was in the worst shape of his life, he was at his best when he fought fedor, fedor beat all his opponents at their best. Both overeem and werdum were asked what was most important, the strikeforce belt or a fight/win over fedor. Both said a win over fedor meant alot more to them.

    The current situation is like this. Werdum wants to rematch fedor to test himself against his idle and to prove his win wasnt a one time deal. He see's a fight with overeem as a step backwards as he already beat him a few years ago in pride. Coker wants fedor to fight overeem because fedor has one more fight left on his contract, and it will give him a bargaining chip at the negotiating table when the contract is up. A fight with overeem will also probably sell better than a fight against werdum.

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    I'm not totally sold on Cain and I disagree that Cain has "an impressive record against tough competition." Sorry but Nog is no where near as good as he once was. His stand up has zero head movement nowadays. Beating Rothwell is hardly impressive to me either. He isn't even in the top 10 and managed to get up every single time he was taken down by Cain even as he was having the fight called. Now the Kongo win was much better but it still raised some questions. How can you not finish a guy with below average bottom ground game when he continously gives you his back and you mount him half a dozen times? How do you not finish a guy when you get the crucifix? Cain's ground and pound is no where near as devastating as Carwin. Not to mention he got double legged by Kongo as well. To sum it up Cain has only beat one top 10 guy. I find it hard to make an argument you can put him higher than Lesnar.

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    ^

    $30M for 6 fights?? Really?

    I find that hard to believe considering the highest paid fighters like Chuck, Randy etc. only got $300,000 a fight?

    I could be wrong tho...

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    Originally posted by DelSoln
    I totally agree with you for most parts. Although I still think Cain is easily a Top 10.

    I also respectfully disagree with many of the posters before, thinking that Cain is going to dismantle Brock.

    Cain does have great wrestling, and his slams are devastating. The only issue is that, the two people he slammed continuously were Kongo, and Rothwell. Cain still hasn't shown to me that he has consistent KO power. Yes, he did put down Nog, but I would love to see another case where he KOs someone.

    JDS is doing pretty good, but the Roy Nelson fight would answer a lot of question regarding his chin, and ability to handle a large man on the ground.

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    Originally posted by bimmere92
    ^

    $30M for 6 fights?? Really?

    I find that hard to believe considering the highest paid fighters like Chuck, Randy etc. only got $300,000 a fight?

    I could be wrong tho...
    Rich Franklin $140,000 ($70,000 win bonus) def. Chuck Liddell ($500,000)

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    Overeem is the TRUTH. He will fight in the UFC after his strikeforce contract, mark my words.

    And please don't compare him to the 23yr old who fought Liddell in Pride. It is UBEREEM now. lol


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