Linux is garbage...

[Xtrema]

and for losers only.

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinf..._0616theo.html

Best quote:

BSD guys make fun of Linux on message boards and Web sites, the gist being that BSD guys are a lot like Linux guys, except they have kissed girls.

let the flaming begin.

[googe]

sadly, most of what he says is true.
but theo will forever remain a moron. and openbsd sucks

[atomic]

this is like laughing at the special olympics

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Interesting article, not much in the way of hard facts, mostly just mud-slinging. I've never used BSD before, but I may throw it on an old box I have kicking around just to get a feel for it. The Linux interface has always been kind of clunky, but it's very easy to program in the Linux environment.

I found this quote rather good, it's very true a lot of the time.

Linux people do what they do because they hate Microsoft. We do what we do because we love Unix.

[atomic]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSpl
Interesting article, not much in the way of hard facts, mostly just mud-slinging.

what's new?

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSpl
The Linux interface has always been kind of clunky, but it's very easy to program in the Linux environment.

can you expand these two statements please?

[googe]

how is a command line "clunky"? the shell interface is going to be the same on any flavor of unix anyway

[atomic]

Originally posted by googe
how is a command line "clunky"? the shell interface is going to be the same on any flavor of unix anyway

i'm guessing redhat X11 user.

"I booted off a knoppix cdrom, i'm a unix admin programmer of security and ass!"

[bol]

Theo is a smart guy but he's an asshole. I agree completely with everything he's said though.

[AllGoNoShow]

Originally posted by googe
how is a command line "clunky"? the shell interface is going to be the same on any flavor of unix anyway

There are many shell scripts, some of which are a bitch to use first timers, some of which are first timer freindly, etc... so yes command line could be a bitch/clinky/whatever.

I personally use FreeBSD on my server and have run a few variants of Linux and have to agree, its crap, its slower then BSD, its not as secure, too many eyecandy/windowsish features/programs on it know, instead of based on a stable/fast/secure/useable OS.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by atomic


can you expand these two statements please?

Well, I was referring to the Redhat GUI when I said "interface." Even the command line is a bit tough to get used to, but it's quick once you get used to it. Figuring out how to use a CD-ROM, floppy disk or flash drive was annoying, having to mount and unmount constantly. Sometimes it just refused to work. I remember when I mounted a CDrom, put in a disk, and left it in. I logged out, remembered I still had a disk in, and it refused to eject. I logged back in, and it wouldn't let me mount the drive becuase it was "in use".

My biggest beef with the interface is how your apps (ie when opening emacs/Xemacs though Terminal) are tied to the Terminal window. I can't count the number of times myself and my labmates were programming something and lost a chunk of it when we hadn't saved for a while and accidentaly closed the wrong Terminal window to clean up the desktop.

[Lexxan]

Personally I prefer FreeBSD because it isn't a huge mess. It's one community of people who work together. But.. It's kind of annoying that a lot of programs are made for linux and they need to be ported to be compatible or they can't be ported and you must run linux binary compatibility which chews extra cpu cycles and ram. example being games like Unreal Tournament where you could really use the extra power for frame rates.

[googe]

Originally posted by AllGoNoShow


There are many shell scripts, some of which are a bitch to use first timers, some of which are first timer freindly, etc... so yes command line could be a bitch/clinky/whatever.

I personally use FreeBSD on my server and have run a few variants of Linux and have to agree, its crap, its slower then BSD, its not as secure, too many eyecandy/windowsish features/programs on it know, instead of based on a stable/fast/secure/useable OS.

what tasks does it perform noticeably slower? there arent any eyecandy/windowsish features or programs that are part of the base os. you do have the option of installing third party ones, but thats totally optional. you say you use freebsd, arent you aware of the ports collection? youd be hard pressed to find any gui software on linux that isnt in there. also you know they use the same GUI (xfree/xorg) right? linux is no more gui/eyecandy than freebsd...

as for not as secure, thats debateble, freebsd still doesnt have anything like pax/grsecurity or memory protection. pretty hard to exploit a userland bug on a system that has those enabled. virtually impossible if configured properly.

please note that linux isnt "redhat"

Originally posted by AllGoNoShow

Well, I was referring to the Redhat GUI when I said "interface." Even the command line is a bit tough to get used to, but it's quick once you get used to it. Figuring out how to use a CD-ROM, floppy disk or flash drive was annoying, having to mount and unmount constantly. Sometimes it just refused to work. I remember when I mounted a CDrom, put in a disk, and left it in. I logged out, remembered I still had a disk in, and it refused to eject. I logged back in, and it wouldn't let me mount the drive becuase it was "in use".

My biggest beef with the interface is how your apps (ie when opening emacs/Xemacs though Terminal) are tied to the Terminal window. I can't count the number of times myself and my labmates were programming something and lost a chunk of it when we hadn't saved for a while and accidentaly closed the wrong Terminal window to clean up the desktop.

mounting drives has been part of unix since its creation, this isnt any different on bsd. the same goes for terminating a parent process taking out the child processes as well (what you describe with the terminals). this is basic unix and freebsd or openbsd wont be any different. its essentially all the same software on a different kernel.

[forced14]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSpl


I can't count the number of times myself and my labmates were programming something and lost a chunk of it when we hadn't saved for a while and accidentaly closed the wrong Terminal window to clean up the desktop.

The next time you went to open that file, you should have been prompted when re-opening to either forget the previous revisions, or open it up with everything exactly as it was before you closed that window.

Or you could just use an editor like kate, which would eliminate the problem of a terminal looking window.

[BerserkerCatSplat]

Originally posted by googe


mounting drives has been part of unix since its creation, this isnt any different on bsd. the same goes for terminating a parent process taking out the child processes as well (what you describe with the terminals). this is basic unix and freebsd or openbsd wont be any different. its essentially all the same software on a different kernel.

Well, I guess it's just something I'll have to get used to. Is there any way I can "lock" the parent process, to prevent it from being closed?

[AllGoNoShow]

Originally posted by googe


what tasks does it perform noticeably slower? there arent any eyecandy/windowsish features or programs that are part of the base os. you do have the option of installing third party ones, but thats totally optional. you say you use freebsd, arent you aware of the ports collection? youd be hard pressed to find any gui software on linux that isnt in there. also you know they use the same GUI (xfree/xorg) right? linux is no more gui/eyecandy than freebsd...

as for not as secure, thats debateble, freebsd still doesnt have anything like pax/grsecurity or memory protection. pretty hard to exploit a userland bug on a system that has those enabled. virtually impossible if configured properly.

please note that linux isnt "redhat"

Go loadup a standard RedHat, Debian, Knoppix, etc.. install, look for something called, OMG, KDE, now run KDE and monitor your memory/cpu usages. Now go download IceWM and configure/use that, monitor again. It is pretty sad when Windows runs quicker then KDE because of all the shit KDE has to process and such.

xfree/xorg is only the base of the X/GUI system, it doesn't provide the interface that you use.

As for security, sure they may not have pax, but go take your 1 month old download of your favorite linux OS, and I bet you there is atleast 3-4 exploits PUBLICLY avalible nevermind selfcoded/private releases that opens you rsystem up as wide as a window unless you know more about closing up ports/upgrading your programs (whether it be rpms or debs or whatever else) properly so you don't fault out everytime. Where as FreeBSD isn't attacked as much, I still fire up a base install with minor changes and I constantly hunt for exploits for it, no look so far.

I never said Linux was RedHat...

[googe]

Originally posted by AllGoNoShow


Go loadup a standard RedHat, Debian, Knoppix, etc.. install, look for something called, OMG, KDE, now run KDE and monitor your memory/cpu usages. Now go download IceWM and configure/use that, monitor again. It is pretty sad when Windows runs quicker then KDE because of all the shit KDE has to process and such.

xfree/xorg is only the base of the X/GUI system, it doesn't provide the interface that you use.

As for security, sure they may not have pax, but go take your 1 month old download of your favorite linux OS, and I bet you there is atleast 3-4 exploits PUBLICLY avalible nevermind selfcoded/private releases that opens you rsystem up as wide as a window unless you know more about closing up ports/upgrading your programs (whether it be rpms or debs or whatever else) properly so you don't fault out everytime. Where as FreeBSD isn't attacked as much, I still fire up a base install with minor changes and I constantly hunt for exploits for it, no look so far.

I never said Linux was RedHat...

this is my point KDE is not linux, and KDE runs on freebsd just as well as linux. it is no more a part of linux than it is a part of freebsd. its a third party window manager that is completely optional in both cases. in fact all of the window managers for X are available on both.

as for third party software having vulnerabilities, 99% of linux software shares the same code as the freebsd version so the vulnerability is going to be present in both. i encourage you to find a remote vulnerability in "linux" that isnt also present on freebsd...

Originally posted by AllGoNoShow

Where as FreeBSD isn't attacked as much, I still fire up a base install with minor changes and I constantly hunt for exploits for it, no look so far.

hehe you really cant find any? here are some starters!

13676 Multiple Vendor TCP Timestamp PAWS Remote Denial Of Service Vulnerability 5/27/2005 9:15:11 PM May 18, 2005 8.2
13527 FreeBSD i386_get_ldt(2) Local Kernel Memory Disclosure Vulnerability 5/6/2005 3:17:11 PM May 06, 2005 4.8
13526 FreeBSD Multiple Local Kernel Memory Disclosure Vulnerabilities 5/6/2005 2:42:42 PM May 06, 2005 6.9
13525 FreeBSD IIR(4) Driver Incorrect Permissions Vulnerability 5/6/2005 3:04:56 PM May 06, 2005 6.6
13392 TCPDump ISIS Decoding Routines Denial Of Service Vulnerability 6/15/2005 5:04:02 PM Apr 26, 2005 5.8
13390 TCPDump RSVP Decoding Routines Denial Of Service Vulnerability 6/15/2005 5:08:40 PM Apr 26, 2005 5.8
13389 TCPDump LDP Decoding Routines Denial Of Service Vulnerability 6/15/2005 5:05:43 PM Apr 26, 2005 5.8
13380 TCPDump BGP Decoding Routines Denial Of Service Vulnerability 6/15/2005 5:07:02 PM Apr 26, 2005 5.8
13290 GNU GZip Filename Directory Traversal Vulnerability 6/13/2005 2:17:36 PM Apr 20, 2005 7.8
13217 CVS Unspecified Buffer Overflow And Memory Access Vulnerabilities 6/13/2005 4:09:56 PM Apr 18, 2005 6.8
13191 FreeBSD Kernel SIOCGIFCONF Local Information Disclosure Vulnerability 4/15/2005 4:51:40 PM Apr 15, 2005 8.2
13106 FreeBSD PortUpgrade Local Insecure Temporary File Handling Vulnerability 4/12/2005 5:18:34 PM Apr 12, 2005 8.4
13021 FreeBSD Kernel AMD64 Unprivileged Hardware Access Vulnerability 4/6/2005 2:54:04 PM Apr 06, 2005 6.6
12996 GNU GZip CHMod File Permission Modification Race Condition Weakness 6/13/2005 2:19:47 PM Apr 05, 2005 6
12993 FreeBSD Kernel SendFile System Call Local Information Disclosure Vulnerability 4/5/2005 2:31:48 PM Apr 05, 2005 6.9
12919 Multiple Vendor Telnet Client Env_opt_add Heap-Based Buffer Overflow Vulnerability 6/15/2005 4:05:55 PM Mar 28, 2005 7.1
12918 Multiple Vendor Telnet Client LINEMODE Sub-Options Remote Buffer Overflow Vulnerability 6/15/2005 4:05:47 PM Mar 28, 2005 6.7
12724 Multiple Vendor Hyper-Threading Technology Information Disclosure Vulnerability 6/13/2005 3:59:51 PM Mar 04, 2005 6.6
12365 BIND Validator Self Checking Remote Denial Of Service Vulnerability 6/9/2005 2:11:47 PM Jan 26, 2005 6.8

or here:
http://www.vuxml.org/freebsd/

2005-06-18 gzip -- directory traversal and permission race vulnerabilities
tcpdump -- infinite loops in protocol decoding
2005-06-17 fd_set -- bitmap index overflow in multiple applications
gaim -- MSN Remote DoS vulnerability
gaim -- Yahoo! remote crash vulnerability
gallery -- cross-site scripting
gallery -- remote code injection via HTTP_POST_VARS
kstars -- exploitable set-user-ID application fliccd
2005-06-09 leafnode -- denial of service vulnerability
2005-06-03 gforge -- directory traversal vulnerability
imap-uw -- authentication bypass when CRAM-MD5 is enabled
racoon -- remote denial-of-service
squid -- denial-of-service vulnerabilities
xli -- integer overflows in image size calculations
xloadimage -- arbitrary command execution when handling compressed files
xloadimage -- buffer overflow in FACES image handling
yamt -- buffer overflow and directory traversal issues
2005-06-01 linux_base -- vulnerabilities in Red Hat 7.1 libraries
mailman -- generated passwords are poor quality
mailman -- password disclosure
squirrelmail -- XSS and remote code injection vulnerabilities
sympa -- buffer overflow in "queue"
tomcat -- Tomcat Manager cross-site scripting
xtrlock -- X display locking bypass
xview -- multiple buffer overflows in xv_parse_one
2005-05-29 fswiki -- XSS problem in file upload form
2005-05-22 freeradius -- sql injection and denial of service vulnerability
oops -- format string vulnerability
ppxp -- local root exploit
2005-05-19 cdrdao -- unspecified privilege escalation vulnerability
squid -- DNS lookup spoofing vulnerability
squid -- possible abuse of cachemgr.cgi
2005-05-14 gaim -- MSN remote DoS vulnerability
gaim -- remote crash on some protocols
2005-05-13 kernel -- information disclosure when using HTT
leafnode -- fetchnews denial-of-service triggered by transmission abort/timeout
2005-05-12 mozilla -- "Wrapped" javascript: urls bypass security checks
mozilla -- privilege escalation via non-DOM property overrides
2005-05-11 mozilla -- code execution via javascript: IconURL vulnerability
2005-05-09 groff -- groffer uses temporary files unsafely
groff -- pic2graph and eqn2graph are vulnerable to symlink attack through temporary files
2005-05-01 coppermine -- IP spoofing and XSS vulnerability
rsnapshot -- local privilege escalation
sharutils -- unshar insecure temporary file creation

and those are just vulns found in the ports collection since the beginning of may

and lots more advisories at http://www.freebsd.org/security/#adv

[008]

Originally posted by BerserkerCatSpl

My biggest beef with the interface is how your apps (ie when opening emacs/Xemacs though Terminal) are tied to the Terminal window. I can't count the number of times myself and my labmates were programming something and lost a chunk of it when we hadn't saved for a while and accidentaly closed the wrong Terminal window to clean up the desktop.

Start xemacs as a background process.. just append '&' to the end of your commandline:

xemacs &

But who uses emacs anyway? vi / vim is the only way to go!

Linux does have a long ways to go for the joe-shmoe. It takes a bit of know-how to get it setup and running, but its pretty decent once you do have it setup.

In the mean time, OSX is probably the best "unix" out there.

[bol]

Originally posted by 008




In the mean time, OSX is probably the best "unix" out there.

haha
OS X is shit

you guys are talking about the desktop so use whatever you want

[googe]

Originally posted by 008


Start xemacs as a background process.. just append '&' to the end of your commandline:

xemacs &

But who uses emacs anyway? vi / vim is the only way to go!

Linux does have a long ways to go for the joe-shmoe. It takes a bit of know-how to get it setup and running, but its pretty decent once you do have it setup.

In the mean time, OSX is probably the best "unix" out there.

that wont solve his problem. even if you spawn it in the background, the parent terminal dying will still terminate the child.

youre best off just starting xemacs from a menu. most window managers will let you do that.

[AllGoNoShow]

Originally posted by googe


this is my point KDE is not linux, and KDE runs on freebsd just as well as linux. it is no more a part of linux than it is a part of freebsd. its a third party window manager that is completely optional in both cases. in fact all of the window managers for X are available on both.

as for third party software having vulnerabilities, 99% of linux software shares the same code as the freebsd version so the vulnerability is going to be present in both. i encourage you to find a remote vulnerability in "linux" that isnt also present on freebsd...




hehe you really cant find any? here are some starters!



or here:
http://www.vuxml.org/freebsd/

and those are just vulns found in the ports collection since the beginning of may

and lots more advisories at http://www.freebsd.org/security/#adv

i'm talking about MY machine if you couldn't read.

Been running for over 2 years now, on and off cause of power failures/moving it arund the house and I can tell you right now, I don't even run 3/4 of the shit that you just pasted vulns for.

Ofcourse there is a shitload of vulns, but the funny part is, Shaw Calgary is always being scanned and exploited Linux,Unix,Windows, whatever, and the interesting part is FreeBSD 4.8 AND 4.7 have NEVER been comprimised, ports open all over etc.. etc.. so that just goes to show. My linux box I had online, buddy had me rooted within 15 minutes, didnt even know until he showed me. That just goes to show.

Yes KDE isn't APART of Linux, but if you read it again

Go loadup a standard RedHat, Debian, Knoppix, etc.. install

WOW there look, FUCKING KDE!!.