Help me determine my property lines for fence

[IRL]

Hi guys, can someone with experience interpreting property graphs assist me in finding out where to drill my backyard fence posts? I have the Real Property Report which isnt very clear (in my eyes) as to where the outer barrier for my property is.

Attached is a scanned image of the report. The 10.34 meters in either side of my red property line was added by me, to show what I see should be the proper measurement I should go by. I am simply adding the 2.81 meters from the house to the "Gravel Parking", then adding 6.01 meters and finally the 1.52 meters showing from the parking to the alley.

Where the confusion for me lies...the neighbour to my left has already made her fence and placed her fence post a meter in from where I think it should be...the brown circle represents her fence post. Next, the construction guys graded my alley and have taken their grader all the way to where my "Gravel Parking" pad is...making it look like my propery ends there.

Can anyone with any experience in this field chime in as the correct way to measure this? Thank you very much in advance.

[nonofyobiz]

if it's newer home it's bylaw to have metal posts in the ground to determine it. Find a metal detector and locate them. My neighbor brought one home and the metal posts correlated with the measurements off our garage pads.

Sounds like your neighbor gave you a bigger yard.

any bylaw states you only have to get within 20 cm of the property line.

[freshprince1]

You can call that number and they'll come out and mark the propoerty lines for free. I did it last year.

Its those posters that say "Call before you dig". might have to call 311 to get it.

[redevil]

Originally posted by freshprince1
You can call that number and they'll come out and mark the propoerty lines for free. I did it last year.

Its those posters that say "Call before you dig". might have to call 311 to get it.

They do property lines as well or just the utilities underground?

[IRL]

I called 311 and was told the city does not mark property lines...I would have to hire a private survey company for this. I called the builder of our home (Jayman) and was told they do not place markers for the property...you are supposed to go by the property report. I was under the impression they would leave markers (this home was built in 2008), but there are none anywhere.

[frozenrice]

What's difficult about your lot is that none of the property lines are parallel or perpendicular to each other, meaning your lot is not perefectly square. This makes it a bit more difficult to eyeball your measurements. It's not bylaw to have the stakes in the ground, but they should be there if nobody has pulled them by now. Surveyors prefer to have them in the ground to make their jobs easier. If you can, rent a metal detector and see if you can find them. If you can locate them, you can run string to get started. If you can't find them or are not comfortable trying it yourself, you can should call up a surveyor to locate them for you. I'd recommend the latter to be on the safe side.

[freshprince1]

Originally posted by redevil


They do property lines as well or just the utilities underground?

Hmmm...good question. now that I think of it, you're right. Those guys came to mark out the utiliities, can't remember if they marked the propoerty lines.

Come to to think about it, I forget how we found the property lines to build our fence...but somehow we found the metal pins in the ground at either end of the lots. They were about 6 inches down.

[barmanjay]

gosh


go to rona and get a measuring tape,.. a bunch of spikes/stakes and a whole lot of string.

I'll come out for a 1/2 hr and mark your lines for you.

[bignerd]

311 only marks underground utilities for free.

There should be metal posts, like a giant rail way stake at the four corners of your lot, sometimes they can be buried and usually are, sometimes like 3 feet deep. A metal detector can find them or you can go on a treasure hunt.

If your neighbor put her fence in too far by a metre that is her issue, however she can move it back to the right place at anytime, as PP said, you can build your fence within 20 cm of actual property lines and not have to correct it.

When we all did our fencing (three neighbors) we used stakes, string and our property reports and went from there. Our property lines also were not even.

[DeeK]

IRL,

I was a land surveyor for a few years. I marked property lines, did property reports, on top of MANY other things on a daily basis.

If you're good with trigonometry, and a scale ruler you should be able to find it with no problem using a technique called triangulation. Just pick 2 known points on the property report, do the math, and then cross measure till your measurements match at a single point.

Also, those black dots on the corners of your property are the actual property pins, if you dig down in that exact location you will find the pin that marks the exact corner of the property line, keep in mind that if they are bent, the property line is where the pinhole is (where the bottom end of the pin goes straight down. Also to note, depending on the survey company and the time of the initial survey the gravel pad may not actually be in the spot shown on the report. If the survey company came to do the report early enough they may have just flipped the proposed gravel pad off the builder's plan to the property report. So I recommend that you don't use the position of your gravel pad as a verified location. It may actually be at the very back of your property.

Also, I recommend that when you build a fence, the ideal way to do it is to place it on your property so that the outside of the fence touches your property line. However, since your neighbour or neighbours already have a fence up, obviously just tie into theirs.

If in doubt I strongly recommend calling the survey company that did the original property report to come back and mark the property lines. You can use any survey company you want, but if you use the original company it will be cheaper as they won't have to verify their records by creating a whole new property report (mandatory as stated by the city of Calgary). As a surveyor, you can't imagine the amount of times I've been called in by lawyers/clients that have taken their neighbours to court over fence issues. Just do it right the first time. Make sure or call a survey team.

Shoot me a PM when you decide to put up a fence, if I'm in Calgary I'll come swing by and verify everything for a case of beer :P

Hopefully this helps.

Also, if it was done by Kellam Berg Engineering and Surveys, let me know. I may be able to work something out.

One more thing, lol.
I just crunched some quick numbers, your 10.34 at the back, should be more like 10.55 on the left, and 10.68 on the right, give or take a few cm.

[DeeK]

Originally posted by nonofyobiz
if it's newer home it's bylaw to have metal posts in the ground to determine it. Find a metal detector and locate them. My neighbor brought one home and the metal posts correlated with the measurements off our garage pads.

Sounds like your neighbor gave you a bigger yard.

any bylaw states you only have to get within 20 cm of the property line.

for the record, it's not bylaw to have post in the ground, as probably 65% of them get removed by excavation machines during the building process. It is mandatory to have at least 4 per city block. Everything can be determined off those four. However, as a surveyor, we pray for all 4 to be in on the property. It makes life so much easier.

[sillysod]

I just figured it out with a tape and busted out the shovel.

Dug for maybe 20 min and found the pins. They are only 12 inches down or so.

[IRL]

Originally posted by DeeK
IRL,

I was a land surveyor for a few years....

THANK YOU very much for this very informative post.

When it stops raining here I will go dig where I marked that black corner pin. If I have any issues I will PM you for the case of beer of your choice and a little help!

[DeeK]

Originally posted by IRL


THANK YOU very much for this very informative post.

When it stops raining here I will go dig where I marked that black corner pin. If I have any issues I will PM you for the case of beer of your choice and a little help!

Hey no problem,

If you have some problems the first time around, I can re-draw the plan with some different lines that should make it easier for you to follow.

edit: in fact, give me a few minutes to do that right now. I've got some time to kill

[DeeK]

Excuse my drawing, I did it in microsoft paint, but it should give you the idea of what I'm getting at.

After looking at the new picture I made you may be scratching your head. I'll walk you through it step by step. It's surprisingly easy. Forgive me, it's long. I wanted to make it as clear and easy to follow as possible.

Firstly, you will need:
- Long measuring tape, ideally 30m would be great, it will make things very easy. If you don't have that, a regular measuring tape will suffice in conjunction with a spool of rope/string that is not stretchable or known as static. The idea of the string is to maintain a straight line so that your measuring breaks will not be skewed.
- at least four large nails, 8-12 inches would be perfect.
- a partner.

I've circled all the numbers you will need to make use of, in addition to the ones I provided on the right hand side. I've also added LINE 1 and LINE 2, these are imaginary lines that are flush (as best you can see) with your front and rear of house. I added them to give you a ballpark of where I'm referring to on the property line.

Also, note that all measurements on the plan, including the ones I have provided are measured to the foundation of the house, not to the siding, brick, stucco, stone, or any other decorative piece. should be easy to see the foundation it will be the lowest part on the house. With the exception of lines E and H, they are assuming your deck is exactly as shown on the plan, and are measured to the walking portion of the deck, not to any railings or overhangs.

Also, my measurements are slightly off a few cm here and there due to rounding and such. it should be negligible in the case of finding pins or putting up a fence.

PIN's should be no deeper than 18 inches, if you go down 18 inches and find nothing, assume it is not there if you are very sure you are in the correct spot. They will be about 3 feet long, with square iron tops. If they have been broken off, they will look more like a 1 cm wide hollow iron tube.

That being said. Here we go.

Finding PIN 1.
Step 1
From the bottom left corner of the garage, following LINE 1, measure 1.20m from the corner (at foundation) to the property line, and put a mark/nail in the ground. From that nail, measure 6.06m directly towards your sidewalk/curb and make a mark. it should be 2.45m from the back of the curb (not the sidewalk, if there is a sidewalk present) Use your best guess, it will not be exact until we narrow it down with cross checks/triangulation.
Step 2
Due to the red corners on the plan, I'm under the assumption you have a utility box on the property line. This helps us out. 9 out of 10 times, the concrete pad that the green electrical boxes are placed on. One of the edges is exactly on the property line. If you look at my little diagram on the right side. it will be 30cm (or less) towards the sidewalk from the edge of the concrete pad. Keep in mind, that I drew that diagram assuming the box is on your lot. If the box is on the neighbour's lot then the pin will be on the right side of the diagram. If I'm completely wrong and there are no boxes skip to step 3. If there is a box, you should be able to dig down and find it quite easily in which case you can skip to "finding PIN 2".
Step 3
Here's where the concept of triangulation comes into play. The idea is to measure out from two separate points, and where they cross at the designated measurements is where you're point will be. So now measure out 8.69m from the bottom right side of the garage (at foundation), to the point where you made your mark estimating pin 1. See line B. If you measured 8.69m and it ended up exactly on the mark you made, then you simply dig down and find the pin. If the report was made before your property was covered in loam, it may have been removed accidentally by the bobcat. In which case, use line A also to pinpoint the location. the 3 points should line up exactly, that will be your property corner.

Finding PIN 2.
From PIN 1, measure out 32.46m to your backyard, as close to parallel to your house as you can. That should give you a rough idea where to look. Also, if you are not using a long tape measure, you can pull 1.22m on LINE 2. and then 10.55m to the back along the property line. Then cross-check with lines E and then D. Where the 3 meet should be your pin. Same as PIN 1, dig down and find it, if it's not there, place a nail in the ground where the measurements meet.

Finding PIN 3.
From PIN 2, pull 9.14m parallel to the rear of your house across to PIN 3. Cross-check with lines H, G, and F, then place a nail in the ground where they meet, no need to dig for a pin, as there will not be one there as shown on the report.

Finding PIN 4.
From PIN 3, pull 32.59m parallel to your house. If you measured correctly you should be close to 2.45m from the back of the curb. Now, cross-check from where PIN 1. It should be about 9.14m away. Place a nail in the ground, Now measure line I. If it is 6.89m (or close to) then you have done it correctly.

Final things to do. Note where PIN 1 and PIN 2 are. (assuming they were there), fill in the holes and place a nail directly above where the pin was. Now, run a string from each nail where a PIN should be (to show in string where your property line is, make sure to pull the string tight). Double check all the measurements to any corners where you didn't find a property pin, or to all of them just to make sure. Then from the points on the report where it says 1.20, 1.22, 1.22 and 1.23 that I have circled from the corners of your house. Measure from those locations to the string. they should be close to indicated on the report.

If all the measurements check out, you're done. Congrats!

I wouldn't worry about being super anal about it to get down to exact cm's. Give or take about 10cm should be fine. Also, when you build your fence, make sure not to disturb the property pins that are there. In case you ever need something surveyed in the future, the longer it takes them to find pins that have not been disturbed the more expensive it will be. build just inside, or just outside the property line. Also, I provided more lines that you really need, but, the benefit of them is that the more measurements you can check, the chances of any errors are less likely with each additional check.

Hope this helps, dude!

P.S. I think this is my longest post EVER.