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    Default (Computer Software Development) Career/Education advice requested

    I'm debating going back to school at SAIT for software development. I've been telling myself for a while that programming is nasty, evil, icky, etc, but a life-changing few days that culminated yesterday opened my mind, out of the thought pattern that I had put myself in years back (ie "programming is too much work, programming is evil, et al," the whole I'll-go-the-easy-route mindset that is poison to aspiration).

    EDIT: Long boring bit removed XD

    Now to the nitty gritty: I only have enough money left for a 2 year diploma, including non-academic expenses (rent, food, etc). I fucked myself over on that one, that's my own damned fault, lesson learned. So, I'm looking at taking my first semester of ITCS at SAIT (common shared semester between the four disciplines), applying it towards the ITSD diploma, and doing the 3 semesters of SD; OR, doing a full 4 semester, 2 year diploma course at another school in Canada, such as Seneca @ York, or Montreal Polytech, which both have full diploma software dev courses.

    MY REQUEST: As I am considering this route (I have NOT made a final decision yet), I would love feedback from people that work in the field of software development, or have relative experience, as to the career field. By this, I mean: viability, entry level prospects, work in Canada or abroad, is SAIT a good course, etc et al. I'm in a researching mode right now, so the more detailed, direct information you can give me, the better.
    Last edited by Vagabond142; 03-15-2011 at 10:07 AM.
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    just to be clear but did you get a diploma from SAIT about the IT courses you took in the past?
    iirc you started attending to sait 2 or 3 years ago and on summers you were looking for a PT job.
    what happened to it and did you find any job?

    having been in the IT/IS industry for 3 years now I would say any specialization you pick will guarantee you a job, it all depends what exactly do you want to do in your life.

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    Originally posted by taemo
    just to be clear but did you get a diploma from SAIT about the IT courses you took in the past?
    iirc you started attending to sait 2 or 3 years ago and on summers you were looking for a PT job.
    what happened to it and did you find any job?

    having been in the IT/IS industry for 3 years now I would say any specialization you pick will guarantee you a job, it all depends what exactly do you want to do in your life.
    To clear up any confusion: I did attend SAIT, and did 4 semesters of the IT Computer Systems course. I did NOT get my diploma due to having severe illness and having to medically withdraw. I DO have my A+ IT Tech certification, since Feb 2008.

    EDIT: Condensed for clarity, again. I've been told that it looks like I'm fishing for handout here. I'm not. I'm asking for input on a good post secondary course for software development, and what the industry outlook is right now. That's all. I'm not asking for a job, a gimme, a handout. Just information.
    Last edited by Vagabond142; 03-15-2011 at 01:03 PM.
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    Default Re: (Computer Software Development) Career/Education advice requested

    Originally posted by Vagabond142


    MY REQUEST: As I am considering this route (I have NOT made a final decision yet), I would love feedback from people that work in the field of software development, or have relative experience, as to the career field. By this, I mean: viability, entry level prospects, work in Canada or abroad, is SAIT a good course, etc et al. I'm in a researching mode right now, so the more detailed, direct information you can give me, the better.
    Would like this feedback as well.
    Going into Software Engineering next year (hopefully).

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    Let me get one thing out of the way, if your reason to go into this is because you want to make games, and you already haven't worked on mod or indy game, then don't.

    You have to pick a niche, a specialization, and become really good at it, you will never have trouble with finding a job, and never have trouble with money.

    If you just want to become a code monkey then you'll have trouble. Every kid coming out of postsec can code, and for cheap. You can't compete with that.

    You seriously have to love what you do, and above all love to learn. If you pop a nerd boner because you just reduced an algorithm from O(n)^2 to O(n) then software dev is for you.

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    Restating the original questions:

    Is SAIT a good place to get a software dev diploma, and if not, where do you (not specifically Whiskas, but the communal "you") think is a good school to go to?

    And

    What kind of outlook is there in the software dev field atm?
    Last edited by Vagabond142; 03-16-2011 at 09:28 AM.
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    Originally posted by whiskas

    If you just want to become a code monkey then you'll have trouble. Every kid coming out of postsec can code, and for cheap. You can't compete with that.
    Don't forget about all the kids in india...

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    Originally posted by benyl


    Don't forget about all the kids in india...
    Yeah, my company tried that. Thanks to them I have guaranteed lifetime job security provided the world still relies on Oil. As others have said Specialization is where you will really earn your place. After school, It may take you a couple of hair-pulling years doing basic IT and seeing no light at the end of the tunnel. As long as people notice you working your ass off, you will be far ahead of most "IT" people out there. This is what will end up opening doors for you.

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    Originally posted by e31


    Yeah, my company tried that. Thanks to them I have guaranteed lifetime job security provided the world still relies on Oil. As others have said Specialization is where you will really earn your place. After school, It may take you a couple of hair-pulling years doing basic IT and seeing no light at the end of the tunnel. As long as people notice you working your ass off, you will be far ahead of most "IT" people out there. This is what will end up opening doors for you.
    Well, the talk seems to be specialization.

    The job title I'm aiming for is "Story and Lore Team Member/Leader," aka "creative design."

    I can't draw worth shit, even my stickman drawings look like shit. What I can do, and do very well, is write. I want to be the guy that makes a series of 10-20 interconnected quests in an MMO. I want to be the guy that writes and implements a section of game story based off an outline and realize it in the game engine. I want to be in those boardrooms with big whiteboards where the flow of a game is discussed and finalized, where continuity is checked. And I want to be able to take those creative snippets and write them into the game script/code.

    I do NOT want to be the guy that actually programs the physics engine at the base level, or the graphics engine of the game. I want to be the one that USES those engines and builds on them to be part of the creative effort of the game.

    OUTSIDE of gaming, I'm actually really liking web dev stuff, ie Ruby, Python, Flash. I'm not particularly good at it yet as I just started into all three, but the language seems very easy to grasp, and there is a logical continuity (so far >_>) to how it codes.

    I hope that that is specific enough to give constructive feedback

    EDIT: I also have no illusions that I'll land it right out of the gate. I'm fully aware that there will be, as you said, some grindhouse years to build up the skills and portfolio, as well as build performance reviews ("He's a dilligent, hard worker," et al) that give a competitive edge.

    EDIT 2: I also know that my "great game ideas" mean jack and shit. What I'm talking about are positions like this:

    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=110003A

    or like this:

    http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company...tml?id=1100039

    or this:

    https://sjobs.brassring.com/1033/ASP..._5290&GQId=404

    And work my way up from there
    Last edited by Vagabond142; 03-16-2011 at 12:04 PM.
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    Originally posted by Vagabond142
    Is SAIT a good place to get a software dev diploma, and if not, where do you (not specifically Whiskas, but the communal "you&quot think is a good school to go to?
    SAIT IMHO is a bad place to be if you want to do actual development. A lot of companies won't even look at your resume if you don't have a Bsc. If you are serious about a development career go to University get a degree.

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    ^ isn't it the truth of dev's jobs and what consumers dont understand about how much work goes into video games

    here OP, Christina Coffin, senior coder @ DICE (they're hiring too!):

    http://blogs.battlefield.ea.com/batt...interview.aspx


    You’ve been doing this for quite some time now. Does it ever get tedious?
    -- No. The worst mistake anybody could ever make going into game dev is to think they know everything. You never stop learning stuff, and that’s actually why I keep doing game dev. That’s why I keep finding it interesting after doing it almost 17 years. There’s always new things to learn, new problems to solve and new game hardware to learn.



    How would you describe the relationship between designers and programmers?
    -- In my experience it’s never been difficult. If I ever have to tell a game designer 'no' or 'there's no time' or 'I need more information', I will put a lot of effort into making him or her understand why. So like the designers here, like Alan Kertz, he comes over and says 'I want this sort of thing happen with the rendering and the gun when you go to scope' and then we have a rational and deep discussion about that. What is the value add for the game? What are the technical hurdles to implementing it? It’s not something that just shows up in my department on a game designer wish list. There’s a lot more deep conversation and understanding between us both. A designer that feels like a programmer is not holding back their creative vision is a happy designer



    How would you recommend budding programmers and designers to get into the industry?
    -- As long as you have a computer and some kind of program -- it doesn’t matter if it’s Flash or some kind of game maker program -- just start making games. Don’t wait until you finish college or wait for some pre-packaged knowledge to figure out how to make games. The people that I think really end up being hired are the ones who just find some way to do it.



    What are the most common pitfalls for amateur game developers?
    -- It’s kind of disheartening to see the people who want a job in games that don’t actually work towards something, or make the unfortunate mistake of choosing to do an MMO or some other grand project over four years with ten people they know informally through the Internet. All the odds are stacked against that.



    -- The act of even doing the most simple game start to finish is a lot more work than people think. My recommendation is you work on something really small and you finish it, and then you do it again, and you do it again. What happens then is that you reinforce the aspect of finishing something that you start, which is one of the hardest things in game development.



    -- What often happens with hobby game making is it becomes something where you have a little moleskine notebook sketching art or whatever, and then you just say "whatever" and turn the page and start something new. That sort of start and stall and jump to something else can become a pattern.


    Nice deferred shading!

    -- It’s totally okay to start with mimicking really simple games that have been done before, even like Pac-Man or Space Invaders. After you do a couple small projects, try something a little bigger.



    -- Being able to show a game or two that you wrote on your own free time speaks volumes to people that do interviews. They will look at your small but actually finished games and say "Okay. This person is passionate about making games, they know how to do something from start to finish, they know how to apply what they've learned to make something." Having a degree isn't enough. You have to prove you love making games, and there's no better way to prove that than by making games before you actually get a game development job.
    you really have to LOVE the programming to make it a career. but look at Minecraft, from nothing into millions of $s and still in beta

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    To what Nizmo posted, let me copy paste what my buddy that worked at BioWare and is now a department lead at THQ Montreal emailed me:

    A kid coming out of a 'video gaming' course is limited to say the least. Getting a software dev diploma is a great foundation to start with. It sounds like you really want to be in the gaming industry... I would say don't wait. "Most people wait to be perfect before getting into the game, you need to get into the game before worrying about perfection." Didn't mean to throw a cheezy quote at you but I thought it pertains in this case. If you want to be in this industry it'll happen, you'll never be as prepared as you want to be so jump in as fast as you can. Getting your software dev diploma will open more doors for you beyond gaming so I'm all for that!

    Anytime! Hopefully my long winded answer was somewhat helpful.
    Take care and I'm available for any more questions you may have.
    This is from a department lead on Dragon Age II.

    I would normally post a long winded, explanatory blurb here, but I don't have the time. My lunch is over, I gotta get back to working on my Java tutorials. Hope to get some more feedback for when I check later!

    EDIT:
    -- Being able to show a game or two that you wrote on your own free time speaks volumes to people that do interviews. They will look at your small but actually finished games and say "Okay. This person is passionate about making games, they know how to do something from start to finish, they know how to apply what they've learned to make something." Having a degree isn't enough. You have to prove you love making games, and there's no better way to prove that than by making games before you actually get a game development job.
    Precisely why I already have an RPG based on my own work planned (not a big one, maybe an hour start to finish, just a proof of concept kinda deal), and will probably be making in Flash once I figure out how to tie a "save game" feature (aka a database) in with it. CR (guy who's email I quoted above) said the exact same thing. Start making em now, and polish em and make new ones as you get closer to the industry. Anyways, back to the books.
    Last edited by Vagabond142; 03-16-2011 at 12:20 PM.
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    For software development I would rate SAIT very poorly. My friends that have taken the program there never made it into the software development field.

    If you're mainly aiming at the Creative side of things though I don't really see a software dev degree being much help.

    Creativity in code is not always a good thing...

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    Originally posted by Recca168
    For software development I would rate SAIT very poorly. My friends that have taken the program there never made it into the software development field.

    If you're mainly aiming at the Creative side of things though I don't really see a software dev degree being much help.

    Creativity in code is not always a good thing...
    Well, the creativity isn't in the code, it's in the game text and the quest text and the lore of the game. The actual code bit would be your standard coding.

    So, if SAIT is poor, what would you recommend as an alternative?

    This one that looks more object oriented and less "webby" than the SAIT course, through Seneca College at York University, 4 semester course: http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/CPD.html

    There's also this one, a three year diploma that specializes in game development: http://www.humber.ca/program/game-programming
    Last edited by Vagabond142; 03-16-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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    Originally posted by mazdavirgin


    SAIT IMHO is a bad place to be if you want to do actual development. A lot of companies won't even look at your resume if you don't have a Bsc. If you are serious about a development career go to University get a degree.

    Originally posted by Recca168
    For software development I would rate SAIT very poorly. My friends that have taken the program there never made it into the software development field.

    If you're mainly aiming at the Creative side of things though I don't really see a software dev degree being much help.

    Creativity in code is not always a good thing...

    I have done about 40 interviews in the last 6 months.

    I don't care about where you went to school. I care about what you have done and what you can show me.

    You don't even need schooling if you have a portfolio of experience that is relevant to the position.

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    For business programming I would recommend MIS, but it is not advanced enough for game programming. If you want to get into high end game programming you gotta do a comp sci undergrad (which will require you do some basic math courses such as linear algebra). Sait is probably the worst place to pick.

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    Originally posted by Thomas Gabriel
    For business programming I would recommend MIS, but it is not advanced enough for game programming. If you want to get into high end game programming you gotta do a comp sci undergrad (which will require you do some basic math courses such as linear algebra). Sait is probably the worst place to pick.
    Okay, so SAIT is at the bottom of the list... Funding another 4 years of school is also a real bugger for me, as I have probably 2 years of student loans left available at University tuition levels, which is why a college diploma is really the most viable entry for me. I'm not discounting a university education though, it'll just be rife with challenges (financially).

    To be honest, the Seneca@York course is looking tastier all the time. Thoughts? (here's the page, click down on Curriculum: http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/CPD.html )

    This one also has an equivalent advanced diploma here: http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/CPA.html which has a game programming specialization option as a third year
    Last edited by Vagabond142; 03-16-2011 at 09:33 PM.
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    I'm currently in my last semester in ITSD at SAIT.

    Since you've taken ITCS, you should know that SAIT has a lot of "hands on" courses especially with the Capstone project in the last semester. However, the ITSD course has quite a bit of theory into it as well learning about data structures and going over a touch of software engineering (analysis and design process) and you apply all that towards your Capstone Project (Preparing an Analysis/Design document for your Captstone Project then actually implementing it in the 4th semester). The instructors for ITSD are very knowledgeable however their way of teaching it isn't great. There is also a more advanced Operating Systems course for ITSD which is new this year andis a tad bit different from the OS course you took in the 2nd semester of ITCS. The revamped OS course is more towards the programming side of Operating Systems and is pure theory.

    In the end, I found out that there is a lot more "theory" behind software development and SAIT doesn't teach you enough of it. That's why I'm transferring to University after to get a Bachelors degree in comp sci.
    That's just my 2 cents though.
    Last edited by .jl-; 03-16-2011 at 10:09 PM.

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    .jl-: The fear I have about the SAIT courses, and why I was asking about them in the first place, is that the whole curriculum seems more web and database oriented vs actual meat-n-potatoes object oriented programming and design. I could, however, be completely and utterly wrong, I freely admit that I'm an outside observer peering in through the window.

    Thanks for the feedback though
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