F-35 Lightning II Discussion

[e31]

Aircraft Carriers are searched daily on ready status. At Nellis there are enough crew to have multiple sweep teams, so one person isn't walking the entire length of the runway (planes gotta fly).

[dawerks]

We are a nation of pacifists, moving from that mind set to the Conservative 'follow the American' mindset is going to be very expensive. It's not a viable long term strategy. That money could be better spent (or NOT spent at all).

As an average Canadian, what benefit do I get from having Candian F35's vs not buying them?

[jutes]

As an average Canadian, what benefit do I get from wasting $1B/year on the CBC?

[Nitro5]

Originally posted by dawerks
We are a nation of pacifists, moving from that mind set to the Conservative 'follow the American' mindset is going to be very expensive. It's not a viable long term strategy. That money could be better spent (or NOT spent at all).

As an average Canadian, what benefit do I get from having Candian F35's vs not buying them?

I should tell my buddies in the CF that.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by jutes
As an average Canadian, what benefit do I get from wasting $1B/year on the CBC?

Direct reinvestment of that $1B into Canadian film, radio and television and the associated business from it that provides a free over-the-air service for all Canadians to see news, entertainment and sports. The websites provide commercial free news and music on 40 different streams providing an outlet for new music that is otherwise prohibitive on for-profit stations.



The fact you had to come up with a tired, populist deflection rather than even a simple stock response to the original question tells me all I need to know about why we need F-35s: we don't.

[jutes]

Originally posted by kertejud2
a free

Not free. $1B/year of wasteful bullshit.

[kertejud2]

Originally posted by jutes


Not free. $1B/year of wasteful bullshit.

So if the government is spending $1B a year on "wasteful bullshit" what makes the F-35 different? I was able to list several things the CBC does in return for the wasted billion and the CBC provides more to the Canadian economy than the F-35 ever will. Provides more jobs as well. What enemy are defending ourselves from?

[dawerks]

Originally posted by Nitro5


I should tell my buddies in the CF that.

Will the F35 introduction be that dramatic? I am genuinely interested. I personally think it's a waste of money, but if someone 'in the know' says otherwise, I'm ears!

We do have older planes and we will continue to have fighter jets, so is this the time and is this the right purchase? For example, can't we buy 'new' planes of the type we already have?

Like I said, I don't know much about the role these would play in our defense plans, maybe this is the right buy, but so far I've heard only things that are to the negative of buying it. Plus, that is a ton of money, I can think of lots of ways to spend it that would actually, directly help Canadians. Would the purchase of the jets supercede that?

[dawerks]

Originally posted by jutes
As an average Canadian, what benefit do I get from wasting $1B/year on the CBC?

What, you never watched sesame street as a kid? No hockey? No CFL?

I'm old but I still watch CBC. I'm probably more average than you are though.

[Nitro5]

Originally posted by dawerks


Will the F35 introduction be that dramatic? I am genuinely interested. I personally think it's a waste of money, but if someone 'in the know' says otherwise, I'm ears!

We do have older planes and we will continue to have fighter jets, so is this the time and is this the right purchase? For example, can't we buy 'new' planes of the type we already have?

Like I said, I don't know much about the role these would play in our defense plans, maybe this is the right buy, but so far I've heard only things that are to the negative of buying it. Plus, that is a ton of money, I can think of lots of ways to spend it that would actually, directly help Canadians. Would the purchase of the jets supercede that?

I'm talking about your comment that we are a country of pasifists. You may turtle at the first sign of aggression, but don't paint every person in this country with the same brush.

[jutes]

Originally posted by dawerks
I am genuinely interested. I personally think it's a waste of money, but if someone 'in the know' says otherwise, I'm ears!

Read the thread.

We do have older planes and we will continue to have fighter jets, so is this the time and is this the right purchase? For example, can't we buy 'new' planes of the type we already have?

Jesus Christ. Why don't you go out an a buy a 'new' 1992 Mustang today?

Like I said, I don't know much about the role these would play in our defense plans, maybe this is the right buy, but so far I've heard only things that are to the negative of buying it. Plus, that is a ton of money, I can think of lots of ways to spend it that would actually, directly help Canadians. Would the purchase of the jets supercede that?

It doesn't matter what we buy, it will still cost the same as we have a budget to go by. The F35 happens to fit within our budget, no matter how the media or the PBO likes to spin his numbers, and is the most advanced jet available. Everything else is obsolete and will be thrown in the dessert.

I was able to list several things the CBC does in return for the wasted billion and the CBC provides more to the Canadian economy than the F-35 ever will.

Good for you. Instead of pulling your hair out, why don't you just sit back and watch. Your opinion doesn't influence the outcome anyway.

[Gman.45]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...-milewski.html

A couple of stories on the CBC website regarding the F35 and Boeing trying to make a move for the RCAF contract with its F18E/F Super Hornet. I bet once he watches the video Jutes will be saying some 4 letter words. An x-RCAF F18 pilot is the chief test pilot for Boeing, so obviously the Canadian media will take every word form his mouth as gospel, and he went on about how the Super Hornet will perform better than the F35, and that it'll be a better fighter "in the north" and so on.

My friend I mentioned earlier who flies the CF18 and will be the RCAF test pilot for whatever we end up buying flew a whole bunch of NATO's gen 4 and 4.5 fighters at the Empire test pilot school. He told me that the Legacy Hornet, ie the one we fly right now will outperform the Super Hornet in many aspects of flight, and that the legacy Hornet's nose points a lot better due to being lighter, and that in a visual range fight if he was fighting his clone in a Super Hornet that the Legacy hornet would prevail most of the time. The big "advantage" the Super hornet has is a few extra pylons and stations, a slightly higher internal fuel fraction, and the AESA radar.

Yes, the Super Hornet is a decent fighter, but it really isn't a huge upgrade over what we currently have - yes it has some better systems and newer avionics/radar, the towed decoy defense system, and the extra small amount of fuel and weapons stations, which all come at a cost in flight performance, which makes it sort of a draw IMO in terms of advantage over the CF18. One thing is that they would be brand new, but so would anything else we buy, and that makes that argument a little redundant.

A loaded Super Hornet is fairly slow as well, I'll link in some stuff an x-F14 pilot who flies with my squad in an online ww2 flight sim has written about how much different ops with the Super hornet are compared to the F14D prior to its retirement due to this speed difference. The F18E/F also burns a TON of fuel very quickly when loaded if it needs to speed up faster than cruise as well, even when the throttle is still in military power, not afterburning zones. They have to live on the tanker.

Head over to www.hitechcreations.com if you're interested in the F35 debate there, my squadmate Mace2004 is the F14 pilot, who also instructed at Top Gun, and Beau is the crew chief of AF-03, one of the F35's undergoing testing. Some great info right from the guys "in the loop" regarding what's really going on. Jutes and the other guys here like Revelations and Go4long have really hit the nail on the head in this thread if you go by what these American guys who have the F35 already are saying.


One last thing, this quote is from a Norwegian guy from the Air Force on the same BBS - they are currently flying F16's and planning on upgrading hopefully to the F35 as well, but they are in the same pickle as Canada is regarding the media and government etc at odds over what they should do. I found this little tidbit pretty interesting, and would love to ask some of the detractors of the F35 to argue against it:

The F-35A has better instantaneous and sustained turn rates than an F-16 carrying a war load. A clean F-16 in "air show mode" has a maximum sustained turn rate of 18 degrees per second. The F-35A carrying an A2A war load and full fuel has a sustained turn rate of 17 degrees per second. The F-35 has better acceleration and top speed than the F-16 carrying a war load, and that's with the F-35 carrying 2.5 times more internal fuel than the F-16. The F-16 is actually structurally limited to 4G's if carrying external fuel or bombs.

[jutes]

Originally posted by Gman.45
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...-milewski.html

My god, you read the comments on that site? I have no doubt in my mind your standard Canadian is a fucking retard.

[revelations]

Honestly, looking at what the Aussies have done recently, I feel that were on the way to becoming a Super Hornet nation.

All other issues being equal - from the sounds of things, the F35 simply wont be ready in time to replace our tired air force.

Yea, who wants a new 1992 Mustang, but at least its ready to go now.

[m10-power]

Originally posted by dawerks
We are a nation of pacifists, moving from that mind set to the Conservative 'follow the American' mindset is going to be very expensive. It's not a viable long term strategy. That money could be better spent (or NOT spent at all).

As an average Canadian, what benefit do I get from having Candian F35's vs not buying them?

As a member nation of NATO the average Canadian will enjoy freedom from aggressors. This comes with some requirements to be able to train and enter combat along side other members, this means we need to have equipment that is up to date. It also means we need a military so that when they are asked to do their job they can do so knowing they have the best equipment.

But the average Canadian is too ignorant to understand beyond what politically motivated media feeds them. Which is also why the average Canadian should not be concerned with how the military uses the funds and what they buy. You think they don't know what they need and more importantly the real information of these purchasers.

[Toma]

Bullshit.

You are saying if we withdrew from NATO today.... some country would take aggressive action against us? Lol. People like you are the ignorant. Not the ones questioning why we should even be part of an aggressive organization and support America in its worldwide aggression.

If anything....this puts canada and Canadians abroad in greater danger. Not less.

[jutes]

Toma complaining about NATO again.

Either do something about it or STFU. Your little pointless rants on the internet aren't going influence anything. You are better off to go protest and get run over by the swat van, then maybe someone will give a fuck.

[m10-power]

Originally posted by Toma
Bullshit.

You are saying if we withdrew from NATO today.... some country would take aggressive action against us? Lol. People like you are the ignorant. Not the ones questioning why we should even be part of an aggressive organization and support America in its worldwide aggression.

If anything....this puts canada and Canadians abroad in greater danger. Not less.

Normally you're on my ignore but I couldn't pass this up.

Yes actually that is correct, we are also a commonwealth country so we'd have to give that up as well.

I am glad we are in NATO, I served in the forces myself. I have family that do as well as grandfathers that served during WW2.

You like to post so negatively about Canada and the US yet you live in a free country, as do many many other people throughout the world, largely because of their actions in the last 100 years or so.

I don't always agree with some of the things being done, but life isn't always peaches.

As for putting Canadians in greater danger, I would say that it's better then looking the other way. I also don't believe that Canada has a bad reputation abroad, quite the opposite. But haters going to hate no matter what.

[Toma]

Originally posted by m10-power


Normally you're on my ignore but I couldn't pass this up.

Yes actually that is correct, we are also a commonwealth country so we'd have to give that up as well.

I am glad we are in NATO, I served in the forces myself. I have family that do as well as grandfathers that served during WW2.

You like to post so negatively about Canada and the US yet you live in a free country, as do many many other people throughout the world, largely because of their actions in the last 100 years or so.

I don't always agree with some of the things being done, but life isn't always peaches.

As for putting Canadians in greater danger, I would say that it's better then looking the other way. I also don't believe that Canada has a bad reputation abroad, quite the opposite. But haters going to hate no matter what.

Your misguided beliefs are your own. Just becasue you hold them does not invalidate beleifs others hold that are in contrast to your own.

[m10-power]

Originally posted by Toma


Your misguided beliefs are your own. Just becasue you hold them does not invalidate beleifs others hold that are in contrast to your own.

Is this you talking to yourself in a mirror?

Ask yourself if you would even exist today if the USA and Canada didn't get 'involved' 70 some odd years ago. Maybe if they had just minded their own business the world would have been a better place for all...