Vettel vs. Alonso (Split from F1 Japanese Grand Prix)

[Kramerica]

The title is practically Vettel's now. I am definitely cheering for Alonso, Ferrari is utterly useless and he seems to be able to drive through all it's problems. Only thing Alonso has going for him is the fact that Vettel is on his 7th engine whereas he's on his 6th, not much of an advantage considering vettel's engine was installed at Japan and Alonso's is already three races old. Poor mclaren are already on their 8th engine for both drivers with 5 races left.

[buh_buh]

I'd rather punch a baby in the face than see Vettel win a 3rd WDC.

[cycosis]

^why?

[Kramerica]

Originally posted by cycosis
^why?

Not to speak for buh_buh, but I feel the same way. Vettel's pace is largely connected to Red Bull's performance.
When their performance has been less than consistent, Vettel's has been as well. Compare that to Alonso who went from doing a 180 in Australia Free Practice to winning Malaysia despite such a crappy car, I'm doubtful you'll see a win like that from the modern Vettel. Every race he wins is so boring "qualify on pole, lead the race, build up 20 second lead, pit and come out first again, rinse and repeat"

[Cos]

.

[buh_buh]

What Kramerica said. Although I did have a pseudo-debate about this last weekend about Button and BGP in which I was on the other side of. Alonso deserves to win the WDC this year, though the Ferrari is too much of a dog to even compete for podiums let alone wins the rest of the year.

Why don't I want to see Vettel win? Because his first WDC he won because of an Alonso/Webber strategy screwup, his second WDC he won because of a dominant RB7, which may be one of the best designed cars in history, and if he wins a third, he will be somehow remembered as one of the best when like Kramerica said, he wins like Massa, only from the front from start to finish.

And anytime he wins like this, almost always in the most dominant car in the field, he celebrates like he's won the most daunting and difficult race of his life, then throws up one of these:

[Kramerica]

Oh god, forgot about the Vettel finger. thats almost reason enough to not want him to win

[Mibz]

Originally posted by buh_buh
What Kramerica said. Although I did have a pseudo-debate about this last weekend about Button and BGP in which I was on the other side of.

Yeah, and the only reason we didn't fight more about it was Montreal 2011. It sounded like you thought Button was a WDC-deserving driver before, IMO, he proved he was.

Alonso deserves to win the WDC this year, though the Ferrari is too much of a dog to even compete for podiums let alone wins the rest of the year.

As much as I don't like stroking rage's ego, Hamilton deserves to win the WDC this year, not Alonso. Alonso's just had less bad shit happen to him, and if we're going on "Who's had the most great qualis and races" then there's a clear winner. Bad luck is why Hamilton is below the people he is. I'm not saying I'm upset about this. Bad luck is part of any sport, shit happens, but if we're talking about who's had the best drives this year then it's Hamilton all the way for me.

Why don't I want to see Vettel win? Because his first WDC he won because of an Alonso/Webber strategy screwup, his second WDC he won because of a dominant RB7, which may be one of the best designed cars in history, and if he wins a third, he will be somehow remembered as one of the best when like Kramerica said, he wins like Massa, only from the front from start to finish.

And anytime he wins like this, almost always in the most dominant car in the field, he celebrates like he's won the most daunting and difficult race of his life, then throws up one of these:

These are the two big points for me. If he was more like Kimi I don't think I'd care so much, but hearing him celebrate like he battled from last place when he lead the entire race with a dominant car just pisses me off. And if I ever had to deal with somebody who says Vettel is a better driver than Alonso because of WDC total I'd completely lose my shit.

[DJ Lazy]

Interesting debate..

I have to +4 buh_buh's reasoning, and strongly back the "Celebrates like he fought from last" statement when he lead pole to flag without EVER having to defend his position.

You can bet, that the day Newey isn't at the same team as Vettel, Vettels days of Pole to Flag will dwindle dramatically. RBR had new "double drs" components on the car in Japan (http://www.formula1.com/news/technic.../878/1012.html)

Vettel/RBR also seems to escape almost any penalty that should be given to them with a reprimand. He blocked Alonso in qualifying in Japan, which warranted a 3-5 place grid penalty (for Vergne on Senna) and previous races for others, yet Vettel got through the stewards with a slap on the wrist and his Pole position intact.

RBR/Vettel seem to be the new Ferrari/Schumacher, with the FIA in their back pocket and allowed to get away with almost anything.

And that finger............

[buh_buh]

Originally posted by Mibz
Yeah, and the only reason we didn't fight more about it was Montreal 2011. It sounded like you thought Button was a WDC-deserving driver before, IMO, he proved he was.

The most undeserving would have to go to JV or Keke Rosberg. I think Button's deserving after so many years of bad cars and partying, but I don't think he was a WDC capable driver before he won it. But I do think he's capable of another one now in the right car. Montreal 2011 was the best drive I've seen in my F1 lifetime for more than the obvious reasons, and I still have and rewatch that race from time to time.

Originally posted by Mibz

As much as I don't like stroking rage's ego, Hamilton deserves to win the WDC this year, not Alonso. Alonso's just had less bad shit happen to him, and if we're going on "Who's had the most great qualis and races" then there's a clear winner. Bad luck is why Hamilton is below the people he is. I'm not saying I'm upset about this. Bad luck is part of any sport, shit happens, but if we're talking about who's had the best drives this year then it's Hamilton all the way for me.

While I agree Hamilton has had shit luck this year, Alonso's been the one driving around problems and getting the job done (until the Spa and Suzuka). Alonso's further up in the standings despite having the 3rd or 4th best car on the grid, and he's continually capitalized on opportunities that have been presented. While I agree Hamilton's had better one off quali's and races, but Alonso's been better all around while driving a midfield car.

All that being said, though I still believe Alonso is the driver that's most deserving of the WDC, I think Ferrari is the least of the 3 remaining teams that deserve any title this year. It's been a strange year, and I'm still pulling for Hamilton, but realistically, I'm probably going to have to punch a baby in the face. Though I probably also said this before Kimi, Vettel, and Hamilton's first WDC when I thought it was in the bag, which actually just goes to show how little I know about F1 since I make the same prediction of WDC being in the bag every year.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by buh_buh
While I agree Hamilton has had shit luck this year, Alonso's been the one driving around problems and getting the job done (until the Spa and Suzuka). Alonso's further up in the standings despite having the 3rd or 4th best car on the grid, and he's continually capitalized on opportunities that have been presented. While I agree Hamilton's had better one off quali's and races, but Alonso's been better all around while driving a midfield car.

Only because Hamilton has had problems that couldn't be avoided. If most of his retirements or delays had been something that could be avoided with awareness or driving skill then I'd completely agree with you, but most of his issues have been things that are, as a driver, unavoidable. In terms of pure driving performance, it's gotta be Hamilton this year.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mibz
As much as I don't like stroking rage's ego, Hamilton deserves to win the WDC this year, not Alonso. Alonso's just had less bad shit happen to him, and if we're going on "Who's had the most great qualis and races" then there's a clear winner. Bad luck is why Hamilton is below the people he is. I'm not saying I'm upset about this. Bad luck is part of any sport, shit happens, but if we're talking about who's had the best drives this year then it's Hamilton all the way for me.

Originally posted by buh_buh
While I agree Hamilton has had shit luck this year, Alonso's been the one driving around problems and getting the job done (until the Spa and Suzuka). Alonso's further up in the standings despite having the 3rd or 4th best car on the grid, and he's continually capitalized on opportunities that have been presented. While I agree Hamilton's had better one off quali's and races, but Alonso's been better all around while driving a midfield car.

Originally posted by Mibz
Only because Hamilton has had problems that couldn't be avoided. If most of his retirements or delays had been something that could be avoided with awareness or driving skill then I'd completely agree with you, but most of his issues have been things that are, as a driver, unavoidable. In terms of pure driving performance, it's gotta be Hamilton this year.

I hate Ferrari, and I agree with buh_buh on this one. Alonso has been top notch this year, while Hamilton has made some mistakes (setups which is partially his fault). Maybe he just whines about it more than Alonso, who knows. I mean really, if Hamilton didn't have any bad luck and team brain farts, he'd be walking this championship right now by 50-60 points. It'd be no different than Vettel walking away, because let's face it, the McLaren has been the class of the field for the majority of the season this year.

Can't say the same for Ferrari, that car's a shitbox haha.

[Mibz]

Might as well just watch GP2 if you think the best driver should always win.

[rage2]

Originally posted by Mibz
Might as well just watch GP2 if you think the best driver should always win.

We are talking about who deserves the championship are we not?

[buh_buh]

Originally posted by Mibz
Might as well just watch GP2 if you think the best driver should always win.

That's why I have to punch a baby in the face.

[Mibz]

Originally posted by rage2
We are talking about who deserves the championship are we not?

Maybe we need to take a step back and define what we each consider to be criteria for deserving it.

I was thinking it's a combination of car and driver, but as I typed that out I realized that "team" is in there as well, and team is a big part of why Hamilton isn't winning. If all his bad luck was due to other drivers or something then I'd have a clear point here, but maybe I wasn't putting enough weight on the role of the team.

Hmmmm *strokes chin*

Originally posted by buh_buh
That's why I have to punch a baby in the face.

You know I'm gonna hold you to this, right?

[Kramerica]

Hamilton's attitude kinda pisses me off and is why I really don't think he deserves it as much as Alonso. He started out the season fighting for consistent high points scoring spots to "Car isn't competitive, not much to do" in Japan. He didn't even seem concerned that Raikkonen ruined his final run or that Button qualified high enough to finish in front of him despite a gearbox penalty.

[buh_buh]

Hamilton's sour grapes now because McLaren's keeping him out of meetings now. It was (another) setup mistake that led to poor qualifying in Suzuka. If Hamilton's got a weakness, I'd say its between the ears.

[AaronK]

I would much rather see Alonso win it, I have grown up watchin Ferrari and would rather see them win than Red Bull. Nothing against Vettel, but I would like to see him race a full season with a car less dominant than RB's obviously is.

[Kramerica]

Originally posted by AaronK
Nothing against Vettel, but I would like to see him race a full season with a car less dominant than RB's obviously is.

I doubt that is going to happen any time soon. My personal theory on the rumors about Vettel's move to Ferrari is that its part of a larger strategy to poach Newey.

I'm 100% behind Alonso at this point. As for Ferrari? I can't really say I'm a fan. I took Montezemolo's comments a few weeks ago to mean that unless Alonso wins another world title before Vettel arrives/2014 he's going to become a number 2 driver. Real nice send off for a guy who drove a "truck" to victory repeatedly all while keeping his mouth shut about its less than stellar qualities.